Members eagle1 Posted March 27, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 27, 2007 i'm going to come off as a TOTAL {censored}ING ELITISTASSHOLE here, but i'm with samtrips......even more so, though. i'd feel like a {censored} if my harmony came from a computer chip....i'd lose quite a bit of respect for myself, man. (i'm not gunning to make anyone feel bad here, but it's just completely against what i think a true musician should be doing....i do, however, have lofty standards) plus, harmony's supposed to work as an enhancement for specific situations...you have to feel it out....every great musician {who writes harmonies} has done this in the past. yeah....you can theoretically harmonize with about 20 different pitches depending on that particular musical moment, but to get your ear on point enough where you can pick it out instead of having it 'dialed in' on a rack-mountable {censored}box is the whole idea. plus, usually the harmonies that come out of those machines are stagnant....there's INFINITE possibilities in phrasing when you approach harmony....how the 2nd/3rd voices are expressed....are they different from each other? are they literally singing the same thing as the lead voice? are they working in counterpoint? this is the {censored} good harmony is made of - not predictable 'one size fits all' bull{censored} enhancements to a diatonic melody line. a falsetto harmony vs full voice can TOTALLY make it in the right situation. a whisper....yadda yadda yadda..... sorry if i sound like a dick...it just feels disengenuous to me...paint-by-numbers bull{censored} for people who are too lazy for trial and error. (really....i know i sound combative....maybe i am a little bit on these 'easy ways out') to quote trashmore: I R SORRY EAGLE: sigue bregando con tu voz. olvidate de esta mierda. rock en espa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted March 28, 2007 Members Share Posted March 28, 2007 so, vocal harmony writing is equivalent to adding reverb, huh? super-duper, kid are you serious? none of what you said is musical content.....HARMONY IS. having a box do the work for you is treating it like an effect that should be plugged in. it's not - that's gay. it's a HUGELY SUBSTANCIAL part of song arranging; something that some people put much more emphasis into than others, obviously. for your next album, why don't you just get a guitar patch and have it do the guitar work for you, since that seems pretty much in line with the sentiment YOU'RE expressing here. (aside from almost outright saying that harmony = window dressing.....) you wouldn't even haev to take your instrument out of its case! in line with your hyperbolic rant on MY opinion - why don't you just record your guitar, then PLUG IN everything else! it'd be great!!!! the bass is just a guitar effect, anyway. the drums - another guitar effect! YOU'RE SINGING? {censored}ing why? that can be plugged in in the mix! here's my method: we can just get a plug-in like the fruity 'sound-font' player, type the lyrics into it and then drop THAT track into antares auto-tune and make our melody!!!! AND THEN WE'LL HARMONIZE IT!!! it'll be such great work!!!!! after all, production is being a musician!!!!! if you want, i'll even help you produce the album!!!! via computer!!!! i won't even have to be there!!!!!!!!!! i'll get credit, though!!! i deserve credit!!!!! no, my friend......back at YOU. Oh boy...you'd hate my music then. Though I do get what you're saying. I don't like hip-hop and rap, largely because it's so sample and loop based; to me, it just isn't the same as creating something from scratch. Especially when more often than not in hip-hop, a sample is used as the main hook of the song. Similarly, it's hard not to think of it as cheating, having a machine doing things for you, when producing and arranging music. I feel the same way a lot of times. I suppose I just draw the line at a slightly different point than you. The harmonies that those boxes produce are pretty simple, at least mine is. Three part harmonies, one above, one below the main vocal line--other presets I usually use are two above, or two below. Nothing I wouldn't come up with on my own. For me, it's mainly a time saver in recording, more than anything else. What it doesn't help me with is deciding when the background vocals come in, or when to drop out, when they should be higher or lower, louder or softer, "ooohs" or "aaaahs"--95 percent of the vocal arrangement decisions are still down to me, and it's still a lot of work to get them right. Also, in my case, the background vocals do tend to be used for atmosphere--rather than an integral part of the song. If I was doing Beach Boys type stuff, where the background and harmony vocals were essential to the song, then yeah--maybe I would approach it differently. I also use...brace yourself...Virtual Guitarist. Now even I consider this to be a grey area. Yes, the patterns are basically presets. But I'm not a guitarist. And trying to get a live guitarist to find the time in their schedule to come down to my house to lay down a part is a hassle. Sometimes, I just want to get things done. Being keyboard player, my stuff is heavily piano-oriented, so I use the program for background guitar parts underneath the piano part--just for effect. I also use a lot of MIDI, so I find having some sort of rhythm guitar part underneath keeps it from sounding too stiff and robotic, and more like a live band. It's mainly for an effect--not an essential ingredient to the song. But I still work a hell of a lot on writing the songs, the chord changes, working out the arrangements, building a track from the ground up. I create the drum parts from scratch--no loops or "band in a box" or anything. Same with as the bass parts, the piano part, all the various little overdubs--I work hard to get every little detail just right. So if that's cheating, then damn--I must be doing it wrong. I suppose you gotta think of all these little things as tools--or means to an end. As long as you use them judiciously, to help you achieve your vision; it isn't like they are dictating the direction of your song. If you are musically inclined, these tools aren't going to give you much of anything you couldn't come up with on your own. But I do understand your point of view, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NewTruth Posted March 28, 2007 Members Share Posted March 28, 2007 i'm going to come off as a TOTAL {censored}ING ELITISTASSHOLE here, but i'm with samtrips......even more so, though. i'd feel like a {censored} if my harmony came from a computer chip....i'd lose quite a bit of respect for myself, man. (i'm not gunning to make anyone feel bad here, but it's just completely against what i think a true musician should be doing....i do, however, have lofty standards) plus, harmony's supposed to work as an enhancement for specific situations...you have to feel it out....every great musician {who writes harmonies} has done this in the past. yeah....you can theoretically harmonize with about 20 different pitches depending on that particular musical moment, but to get your ear on point enough where you can pick it out instead of having it 'dialed in' on a rack-mountable {censored}box is the whole idea. plus, usually the harmonies that come out of those machines are stagnant....there's INFINITE possibilities in phrasing when you approach harmony....how the 2nd/3rd voices are expressed....are they different from each other? are they literally singing the same thing as the lead voice? are they working in counterpoint? this is the {censored} good harmony is made of - not predictable 'one size fits all' bull{censored} enhancements to a diatonic melody line. a falsetto harmony vs full voice can TOTALLY make it in the right situation. a whisper....yadda yadda yadda..... sorry if i sound like a dick...it just feels disengenuous to me...paint-by-numbers bull{censored} for people who are too lazy for trial and error. (really....i know i sound combative....maybe i am a little bit on these 'easy ways out') to quote trashmore: I R SORRY EAGLE: sigue bregando con tu voz. olvidate de esta mierda. rock en espa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluesway Posted March 28, 2007 Members Share Posted March 28, 2007 Wow, yeah, your right, you are an elitist asshole.FYI, these harmony boxes don't have fixed harmonies. You can program in different pitches, different 'scooping' (the vocal equivalent of bending), the amount of delay before the harmony voice kicks in. And it can be all randomized so it isn't predictable.You really have to hear it and play with the box before you can understand.Not to mention that I bought the box for live performance because we only have one singer. Hard to do harmonies live when you only have one singer, isn't it?But being an elitist asshole means never having to say your sorry.uhhhh...did you read past the post you're quoting? (#21 in particular) no? oh....well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluesway Posted March 28, 2007 Members Share Posted March 28, 2007 No offense taken! I will keep on using my voice since anyway I don't have any money to buy one of these things (just bought a house!) but I got curious since I know that if you are alone with your guitar some place singing, this might help in some instances. Thanks for all your comments. They were extremely appreciated! yeah..i'm actually speaking in a studio context, but i also don't like it live either. and bro - congrats! where'd u buy? in guayama? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mount trashmore Posted March 28, 2007 Members Share Posted March 28, 2007 to quote trashmore: I R SORRY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Christopher Kai Posted March 28, 2007 Members Share Posted March 28, 2007 My thoughts? Technology is a blessing and a curse. What you can use to help you can also be a crutch and hurt you. Someone might use a harmonizer to add to a song just as well as someone might use a harmonizer to cover over a poorly written song. I know a fake when I see one just like I know a guy who's freakin' gifted when I see one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eagle1 Posted March 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2007 yeah..i'm actually speaking in a studio context, but i also don't like it live either. and bro - congrats! where'd u buy? in guayama? I'm not going to make a believer out of you just by writing but I'm telling you, you'll be amazed with the use of this thing. I think we are going to use it live on a couple of songs! Is that good... Thanks for the congrats! I bought the house in Aguadilla (yep, a long way from home...) 'cause I actually work in Isabela. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluesway Posted March 28, 2007 Members Share Posted March 28, 2007 bro!!! you asshole! i DREAM of living in aguadilla and/or isabela (rincon's just financially out of the question). i just don't know what i'd do for $$$ out there. it's metro area for me. los montones/jobos are my favorite beaches in PR. congrats, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eagle1 Posted March 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2007 lol Rincon is definitely a great area for beach houses and apartments but like you said, it's financially way out of reach! I'm a lowly payed mathematician/CS guy! But it is tough looking for work on this part of the island! The house I bought is in a new neighborhood and it was fairly cheap (like $85k) and since I don't have kids yet I'm pretty comfortable there.. BTW... I'm 10 minutes from Jobos, 15 from Montones, and 12 from Crash Boat! hehehehehhe :evil: :evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Floophead3 Posted March 29, 2007 Members Share Posted March 29, 2007 Christ, $85k? You can't buy a cardboard box here for $85k... I'd say where I live the average house costs $500k, including my own, and yours is probably bigger too. I've got friends living in multimillion dollar homes that would probably cost $150k where you live. I envy you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tamoore Posted March 29, 2007 Members Share Posted March 29, 2007 Someone might use a harmonizer to add to a song just as well as someone might use a harmonizer to cover over a poorly written song. I'm totally unsure how a harmonizer could mask a poorly written song. It's either a good song, or a bad song. A bad song that sounds good is still a bad song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted March 29, 2007 Members Share Posted March 29, 2007 I was lucky to play in a band with some great singers. It was back in a day when guys who can sing got involved in choir in school. We just had a little get together to hear our old female drummers group. She is a band director and has been playing with these guys 6 year. I said to our lead singer ,,, you and joe and allen always amazed me with the HARMONEY you pulled off. He just laughed and said ,, we were naturals, It was pretty natural for that choir director to chew ass and pound that stuff into us for 4 years. Great harmony takes lots of practice. Harmony in a box is cool tech,,, people that can pull off great vocals with their talent are where its at for me. rat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eagle1 Posted October 20, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2007 Hey guys. I was bored today and started playing with an old software called DecaBuddy or something similar. The "harmonized" voices do not sound THAT bad. But I was quite surprised at the settings and capabilities. I'll probably keep on playing with these types of software to reach those "high" notes I know I can't reach. But in the meantime I guess I'll keep recording hundreds of takes! BTW, here's a little snippet for a song I'm working on, again this is just me playing and not nearly finalized: http://gelocks.topcities.com/Music/harmonizando_soft.mp3 (lyrics are in Spanish... so.... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 20, 2007 Members Share Posted October 20, 2007 I've constructed harmonies by pitch shifting in the past. It's laborious. I've used harmony generators (there's one that comes with some version of Band in a Box that will use the harmonies generated by the harmony generator in BiaB -- which is definitely pretty cool, since you can use all kinds of different harmonies and throw weird azz chords at it. I used it for a sort of Queen-like intro to a house song (think Killer Queen, I guess) I did a while back. They're hellacious fun to play with, of course, and you can waste hours... but the thing I don't like is how obvious they tend to be. And ditto for Autotuning real harmony vocals. I've heard a couple of new pop bluegrass pieces that use some form of pitch correction (or possibly harmony generation) -- including a tune by Ricky Freakin' Skaggs -- someone who really, really ought to know better. It just sounded so wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jewel Posted October 20, 2007 Members Share Posted October 20, 2007 i don't use any of that stuff that will "fix" a performance. i use the computer like an old 2" deck. i think alot of good recordings have been made using devices that will "fix" things and alot of good recordings have been made without that stuff. i just want to do it the old way performance wise. digital recording is a double edged sword. its easy and cheap, but it is very unforgiving. i try to track with an old school mentality whenever i can. peace, jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ProgRock11 Posted October 24, 2007 Members Share Posted October 24, 2007 I have to say I understand exactly where Bluesway is coming from. There is something to be said about REAL musicianship and TRUE talent. It's something that I feel is lost in today's pop-music. I know that's not the issue with everyone in these forums; hell, most of us are only working with small home studio gear and not in million dollar professional studios. BUT, would you really want to listen to another pitch-correction laden album from Fergie (Black Eye Peas) which is full of unnatural harmonies (tracks in which they have to lip-sync live) or would you rather something that is pure? Sure it may take us longer to get that difficult line pitch perfect, trying take after take. But once you get it all on your own, you can rest assured that it's all your own and it's something to be proud of. When I was young, the first thing I learned in art school was that there is no such thing as mistakes. As Artists, we are to embrace our mistakes and learn how to turn them into gold. The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Hendrix, Nirvana, and Miles Davis all made mistakes, but it's what they did with those mistakes that made them unforgettable. This is just my two-cents, I, in no way, look down on anyone for using pitch correction software in their music. It's purely a personal choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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