Advice requested for creating vocals.

[JSmalley12000]

Hello, I have been playing guitar for 8 years but only singing for about 2. Thus, I am way more musically developed than I am vocally, but I am trying to bridge the gap. Currently, I have a lot of songs that I intend to bring to a band which I would like to front, but I am having problems creating even barely-sufficient vocals for these songs.

 

I would like anyone's advice on creating vocals. I have become a bit more proficient at forming vocal melodies. I can write lyric poetry. I take voice lessons and am learning how to sing better. But I am having problems bringing it all together.

 

For anyone who has been in, or is currently in this type of situation, I'd love to hear what methods, tricks, advice, stories, lessons learned, and anything else worth sharing on the subject.

 

I have a MySpace page with my first couple songs. The first two I recorded (I'm far from an audio engineer; please forgive the quality) with vocals; the third track is vocal-less and is one of the ones I'm struggling to put vocals to. The last one I'm not sure if I even want it to have vocals.

 

http://www.myspace.com/morphinesmile

 

You'll notice that the third track, for example, has guitars, keys, bass and drums, and sounds as though it's a full band production. In this sense, I feel like there should be a vocal that would fit, I just can't pin it down. I've tried working on it just with the acoustic guitar, but I guess I get frustrated too quickly.

 

I do catch myself trying to sing Radiohead and other bands that are generally tenor while I am a barritone. And, I wonder all the time if I'm just simply not a singer, though I don't want to throw away 2 years worth of effort just yet.

 

I'm very curious to hear what you all have to say. I'm sure if I keep toughing it out and paying my dues, I'll be fine in the long run, but I'm 28 and trying to make up for lost time as quickly as possible, while I still have the time and energy to burn organizing a full-time band.

 

Thanks, and have a great weekend everyone.

 

Cheers,

Jim.

[Billy Sausage]

Others on here may offer you several paragraphs of advice, but I will offer you just one sentence:

 

 

Listen to The Beatles

[epi67v]

Hey Jim. In your situation, I would write the vocal melodies first and sit down with a piece of paper and write down a variety of lyrical themes for songs. Pick which one you like best and work from there. Plus, when trying to sing tenor while you are a baritone, drop the vocals by an octave. If you cannot project in the lower octave, do some vocal exercises (Scales and what not) before seriously singing. Also, drink plenty of water. Best wishes, Me.

[Floophead3]

You seem to have the same predicament I do. I'm also a guitarist of 9 years, but I don't have any lessons in voice, at least you're working at it. But, I also have the same issue of coming up with vocal ideas. The biggest thing for me used to be a range issue too, cause I'm naturally a baritone as well, and singing even lower tenor stuff was a stretch.

 

One thing I suggest, work on range, and only range. Just really try to improve your high end, because it can be done. I used to probably strain to hit an E. Yes, that's the 1st string on a guitar E. Now I can hit an E above that. Not to mention for some reason even though I never practiced my lower range, I can go even deeper into the bass than I used to be able to. The fact is, while your comfort zone and chest voice range probably won't change a lot, you can definitely expand your total range by a lot.

 

Now I'm no vocalist and I have 1000s of problems of my own, but what I did to expand my range was sing along to songs I like, but instead of singing melody, sing harmonies above. 3rds, 6ths, octaves, octaves + 3rds, octaves + 6ths if you can do it (that's a real stretch usually!). Some singers are pretty low so I can really stretch for 2 octaves but that's not really singing at that point Anyways, work the high range as best you can because I know it's way way way harder to think about vocal melodies when you're restricted to a small range yourself.

[blue2blue]

Well... I like the timbre of your voice -- what I could hear of it... it's pretty far down in "Save Me" but it's just buried in "Pictures" under all that jangly guitar. You do have some pitch control issues, of course, but I'd say that's simply a matter of practices. Frankly I couldn't make out enough of "Pictures" to get a grasp on your voice but there's a pleasant Bowiesque huskiness in "Save Me" -- I think it could be quite winning down the road.

 

I don't have many suggestions really except keep practicing, take care of your voice, work on pitch.

 

Oh... I was not at all crazy about voice keypad in "Save Me"... I don't get that at all... plus, as you progress, you'll hopefully get to a point where your pitching is instinctive enough that you'll hit true intervals rather than even-tempered approximations -- but big hold chords and pads will either drag you back down to the keyboard approximation or will make a true interval sound off. Of couse, we live in an even-tempered world in this era of guitars and keyboards, but if you listen to the great vocalists, I think you'll find they tend to move toward more natural, mathmatically precise intervals rather than the approximations necessary on even-tempered instruments.

[JSmalley12000]

 

Well... I like the timbre of your voice -- what I could hear of it... it's pretty far down in "Save Me" but it's just buried in "Pictures" under all that jangly guitar. You do have some pitch control issues, of course, but I'd say that's simply a matter of practices. Frankly I couldn't make out enough of "Pictures" to get a grasp on your voice but there's a pleasant Bowiesque huskiness in "Save Me" -- I think it could be quite winning down the road. I don't have many suggestions really except keep practicing, take care of your voice, work on pitch. Oh... and ditch that voice keypad in "Save Me"... I don't get that at all... plus, as you progress, you'll hopefully get to a point where your pitching is instinctive enough that you'll hit true intervals rather than even-tempered approximations -- but big hold chords and pads will either drag you back down to the keyboard approximation or will make a true interval sound off. Of couse, we live in an even-tempered world in this era of guitars and keyboards, but if you listen to the great vocalists, I think you'll find they tend to move toward more natural, mathmatically precise intervals rather than the approximations necessary on even-tempered instruments.

 

 

Like I said, I'm no sound engineer! The lyrics are there if you need help. Those vocals were from November when I'd been singing for about a year, and this November will be 2 years...not long. Thank you for your comments...though I don't understand what "even tempered" instruments means.

 

Cheers!

[blue2blue]

Like I said, I'm no sound engineer! The lyrics are there if you need help. Those vocals were from November when I'd been singing for about a year, and this November will be 2 years...not long. Thank you for your comments...though I don't understand what "even tempered" instruments means. Cheers!

 

No prob... you'll get the feel of appropriate mix levels for different instruments as you go along. My basic guideline is that each main instrument or instrument group should feel about equally weighted in the mix. (Of course, it's all subjective.) But I want to be able to hear each primary element, bass, guitars, drums, vocals, keys more or less equally well. Other things, keyboard or string pads, individual percussion elements, etc, may have lesser roles -- but my guideline is the listener shouldn't have to strain to hear anything. (Now, it might be tough to make out the words but that's a separate issue.)

 

On the even-tempered thing -- first off, I should have used the much more widely used term, equal temperament.

 

Second, it's probably best to forget for the time being I mentioned it.

 

Suffice it to say that it's the intonation system that modern pianos, guitars and some other instruments use. It involves "splitting the difference" between the proper actual pitch of a given note in one key with the proper actual pitch of the same note in a different key -- which can be different by a fairly significant amount due to the fundamental principles of harmonics when they're applied to conventional scales created from subsets of 12 half-tones.

 

This is why modern keyboards and guitars can be used in multiple keys and why we can modulate from one key to another relatively gracefully. And though the chords that are created from even-tempered instruments are not quite perfect, we've become so acclimated to the slight out of tuneness of, say a major triad, that most folks barely notice it.

 

And -- for that matter -- music created with mathmatically correct scales tends to sound quite odd to modern listeners. It all goes back to the basic math of harmony... you can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

[kurdy]

 

Hello, I have been playing guitar for 8 years but only singing for about 2. Thus, I am way more musically developed than I am vocally, but I am trying to bridge the gap. Currently, I have a lot of songs that I intend to bring to a band which I would like to front, but I am having problems creating even barely-sufficient vocals for these songs. I would like anyone's advice on creating vocals. I have become a bit more proficient at forming vocal melodies. I can write lyric poetry. I take voice lessons and am learning how to sing better. But I am having problems bringing it all together.

 

 

Giving advice on this topic is very tricky, because its one of the few elements of writing songs that is mostly down to intuition and instinct. It's just about doing what sounds "right", and unlike other elements of music, such as harmony and rhythm, it can't be broken down that easily. Not that it's a skill that absolutely can't be taught or learned. But most melody writers just have an intuitive sense of what makes a good melody, simply from just listening and absorbing a lot of music. The Beatles absorbed everything from showtunes, to American R&B, to English music hall, to classical, and it all shows up in the melodies they wrote. They never went to school to learn it.

 

So all I can say is just to listen and absorb. I realize this may not be exactly the kind of advice you were looking for.

 

I will say further that a good mentality to have in writing songs is not to think of the melody as a mere afterthought, but as the centerpiece of the song. Even if you create the backing track or musical arrangement first, it should exist to support the melody, and not the other way around.

[oddestmoose0]

Only thing I can say about vocals is to keep practicing and just sing.

 

I just wanted to chime in to say I really liked the vibe of "Pictures" on your myspace a lot. I think it has a lot of potential so keep on working on it.

[JSmalley12000]

 

Only thing I can say about vocals is to keep practicing and just sing. I just wanted to chime in to say I really liked the vibe of "Pictures" on your myspace a lot. I think it has a lot of potential so keep on working on it.

 

 

Whoever you are, you just made a very bad night turn out well. Thank you so much for your words. I really mean that.

[eeglug]

 

I will say further that a good mentality to have in writing songs is not to think of the melody as a mere afterthought, but as the centerpiece of the song. Even if you create the backing track or musical arrangement first, it should exist to support the melody, and not the other way around.

 

 

Everything kurdy says is bang on. I would add that forming melody can be pretty tied to the vocal persona you cultivate for yourself as you gain confidence in your singing. Practice, practice, practice. Find things that fit your range to practice to. Radiohead is pretty high up there range-wise. If you like the Beatles, sing along to Lennon, not McCartney as Paulie has a slightly higher range.

 

I listened to Save Me and Pictures and I thought you did a fair job on the vocals...they have a nice indie vibe to them. There have been plenty worse singers out there that's for sure. And I thought your overall sound was cool as well (although a bit lo-fi).

 

Another thing: don't think of this as a race against time. You're young (yes! 28 is young!) and you've got plenty of time to work on this.

[JSmalley12000]

 

Everything kurdy says is bang on. I would add that forming melody can be pretty tied to the vocal persona you cultivate for yourself as you gain confidence in your singing. Practice, practice, practice. Find things that fit your range to practice to. Radiohead is pretty high up there range-wise. If you like the Beatles, sing along to Lennon, not McCartney as Paulie has a slightly higher range. I listened to Save Me and Pictures and I thought you did a fair job on the vocals...they have a nice indie vibe to them. There have been plenty worse singers out there that's for sure. And I thought your overall sound was cool as well (although a bit lo-fi). Another thing: don't think of this as a race against time. You're young (yes! 28 is young!) and you've got plenty of time to work on this.

 

 

Hello, thank you for the thoughtful reply. The lo-fi stems from a rudimentary understanding of home recording. If were to re-do all of these songs today, they would sound cleaner (from posting in the home recording forum!). I think what I've been focusing on mostly lately is lyrics, and really trying to solidify my phrasing and stories and how I spin them.

 

I do feel a bit if urgency, but I certainly won't put myself out before I'm ready. Anyways, thank you again for listening. I appreciate all the feedback (from everyone else as well).

 

Cheers,

Jim.

[Mark Vasquez]

i havent been singing that long either but its weird when you sing live as well ill tell you its a whole another ballpark.

because i have confidence enough to know i sing good alone, but LIVE (not practice, shows) ill mess up and this is due to all kinds of small problems, either it being a jacked up mic stand or no moniter near you or everyone else drowning you out or your own laziness...

your music isnt bad either dude it may help to picture your music as a music video and then a scene maybe a room with a dark hallway and then from the hallway emerges a human figure it is about to sing and then YOU speak for him...

[DaSpider]

The one thing that I did to improve my vocals and range was to simply sing along in the car. But when I say sing I mean to really concentrate on hitting the notes correctly. Eventually start trying to add harmonies too (even better adding a harmony line where there isn't any on the recording).

 

I know you are taking lessons too and that's great. But practice, practice, practice.

 

Another thing to add is that I don't think I really got better until I stopped trying to sound like someone else and accepted my own voice. If you are trying to sound like McCartney, chances are you can't pull it off and besides, it's your music and it should have "your" voice. It might sound strange, but once that happens it really opens you up - both performance-wise and creatively.

 

Good luck and keep practicing!

 

Neall

[JSmalley12000]

 

i havent been singing that long either but its weird when you sing live as well ill tell you its a whole another ballpark. because i have confidence enough to know i sing good alone, but LIVE (not practice, shows) ill mess up and this is due to all kinds of small problems, either it being a jacked up mic stand or no moniter near you or everyone else drowning you out or your own laziness... your music isnt bad either dude it may help to picture your music as a music video and then a scene maybe a room with a dark hallway and then from the hallway emerges a human figure it is about to sing and then YOU speak for him...

 

 

Funny you mention it, I've been moving in this direction lately -- trying to visualize the scenery within the song. But thank you very much for the advice, it is very much appreciated.