Members John Rimbaud Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Hello, What do you think about this kind of construction ? I got a friend who puts that kind of uneven rythm from out of nowhere in most of his songs. He think's he's creating original stuff, i think he should learn the basics before trying to do things out of the ordinary (he's been playing for about 3 years). Whatever, the first time i heard the riff, i immediatly tought something was wrong before looking at the tab. Does that kind of writing exist ? Do you know bands that uses that kind of stuff ? Here's the riff how he plays it : http://cjoint.com/data/cos0ulf6ZK_blob.mid Here is how i think it should be : http://cjoint.com/data/cotlycY2dK.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cadence440 Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 I would say something is wrong, those should be flats not sharps! I don't think that is what you are asking though I remember someone in college who had a similar situation where everything had to be a bit odd just for the sake of being different. I think learning the basics is certainly important for anyone, but also writing odd things can also help work out ideas, so it is hard to say. There is certainly nothing wrong with odd meter in principle, but when it is there just to be weird I think it does show, as it tends to sound not all that musical. (imo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Rimbaud Posted February 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Actually the guy is the leader of my band. I've been arguing a lot with him because of this. It sounds wrong and all the people who i've made listen to it (who learned music at the academy) also think so, and altrough most of the people won't probably notice a missing note, i'm not confortable with playing that kind of stuff. He doesn't make it to sound weird, it's a pretty basic riff, i've corrected it by placing the whole thing in 4/4 and adding a pause before the notes introducing the chords but he says it sounds wrong. But how the {censored} could it sound wrong in 4/4 ? Basic, maybe, but wrong ??? Ps : i assume you understood that i've replaced all the notes so he won't accuse me of putting his stuff on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mpeddle Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 There's a pretty obvious answer, I think. It's okay to play things that are odd and shift time...but if it doesn't sound good, it isn't good. If it does sound good, it is good. It's as simple as that. I think that part is salvageable as written, but maybe he doesn't play it exactly in the rhythm you notated? Another thought...the riff needs more harmonic movement. If it just chills on that one chord the whole time, it's going to put people to sleep. Ask him if he can add some additional material to it. Perhaps the problem is just that it's a boring riff! Also, another way to get good playing might be to simply play some more covers. You're right---a lot of metal is very 4/4 chugga chugga, no bull{censored} rhythmically....but that's a skill that has to be learned. If you listen to any professional metal guitarist worth two {censored}s, they'll tell you that they spent all of high school playing along to Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning. I think learning to play along to that kind of stuff gives you the basic feel for the style and the downpicking chops that are necessary to be a decent metal guitarist. So---offer your buddy two ideas:1. Add something to the riff, because it's not working2. Let's try playing a cover, because it'll help the band tighten up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bodyguard2112 Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mpeddle Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 mmm...that's the key part , hahah. If you really want to improve your musicality, reading music can be somewhat helpful....or not at all... However, I found that learning to read rhythmic notation is perhaps more essential. It really improves your grasp of music and helps you improve your creativity as far as conceiving rhythm guitar parts, for sure. I had a band practice the other day where our rhythm guitarist said "Hey, let's try switching this to 6/8 and see if it works". Being able to make that kind of change on the fly is HUGE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Rimbaud Posted February 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Here's the riff how he plays it : http://cjoint.com/data/cos0ulf6ZK_blob.midHere is how i think it should be : http://cjoint.com/data/cotlycY2dK.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mpeddle Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Your version sounds tighter. There's no real change in how the riff sounds, but the piece as a whole sounds tighter because you can tap your foot to it. The original version doesn't have that 4/4 sound that makes it groove better. It's not really wrong, but I think it would be fair to say that the 5/4 one is "less right", maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Rimbaud Posted February 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Yeah i think that too. It still doesn't sound awesome but it makes at least the riff fluent.It happen's to me some time to image something that i don't manage to put in a standard scale. Sometimes it fits a different scale, sometime what i write is juste wrong, but i don't just transform the reality to make my stuff fit into it. But whatever i tell the guy, he doesn't listen. I'd like to find some music writting theory or the opinion of some God of music to prove him that you just don't {censored}ing put whatever weird stuff that sounds like {censored} just because you think it's cool and see if i can get him to change his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mpeddle Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 to be honest, there's nobody who can tell him he's explicitly wrong. there's no absolute right and wrong in music. but if everyone except him seems to dislike it, that's probably proof enough, right? how does the rest of your band feel about it? btw---if you've got a moment, would you mind reviewing my song? it's on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members popthree Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 either way is right. lots of hard/dark/grunge/metal type bands play parts with weird timing shifts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cadence440 Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 to be honest, there's nobody who can tell him he's explicitly wrong. there's no absolute right and wrong in music. but if everyone except him seems to dislike it, that's probably proof enough, right? how does the rest of your band feel about it?btw---if you've got a moment, would you mind reviewing my song? it's on the forum. I would argue that there is a right and wrong in music - though I know what you mean. The way that example is notated is wrong. It might seem nitpicky but unless those notes were just computer generated from the tab, the person should learn about notation before arbitrarily choosing certain enharmonics. It is similar to saying there is no right and wrong in literature but having spelling errors all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeveryHarper Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 I think your version is much better. However, his version is "interesting" nonetheless. If I had to chose I would chose yours. This is why I do not write with other people! I have my own opinions. Those opinions are strong. I am a flexible person, but when I am convinced that one thing or way is better than another...there's no dissuading me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thisISjoel Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 Yours is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Rimbaud Posted February 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 I have my own opinions. Those opinions are strong. I am a flexible person, but when I am convinced that one thing or way is better than another...there's no dissuading me. In this case i think it's more a question of good sense than a question of opinion. I just don't understand how he could get an idea how that and how he can stick with it altrough even tabs scales are against him ... I've seen riffs in 3/4, in 5/4 and there's a lot of weird stuff in "master of puppets" to, but, i've never seen a song with a 3/4 part in the middle of a 4/4 riff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Heckxx Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 Here's the riff how he plays it : http://cjoint.com/data/cos0ulf6ZK_blob.midHere is how i think it should be : http://cjoint.com/data/cotlycY2dK.htm The way he plays it, its the odd-timing that you have pictured in your original post. The way you play it, you're changing it slightly so its all 4/4. Either way works, I think they both sound good for that genre of music. -Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yollyp Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm a singer, a composer and can play the guitar - but reading notes of this kind seems not that clear. Anyhow, whatever the style is, the most important thing for me is the harmony of the music when already played - (just my opinion.) I'm not really into writing notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members popthree Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 I've seen riffs in 3/4, in 5/4 and there's a lot of weird stuff in "master of puppets" to, but, i've never seen a song with a 3/4 part in the middle of a 4/4 riff i believe Led Zeppelin, Soundgarden, Metallica, Jimi Hendrix and many others have all done amazing things with time shifting like this. Its not that uncommon. It can sound totally bizarre, but in the context of a live band delivering the product it can work. the main issue with the examples we are listening to here is that it is a midi score. midi done cheesy makes anything sound downright goofy and wrong. in the context of a human feel, band situation, obtuse timing shifts can and do sound cool and amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Rimbaud Posted February 15, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 15, 2009 Possible, but they were professional musiciens and knew what they were doing. We're talking here about a guy who has been playing for 3 years and doesn't know a thing about music writing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members popthree Posted February 15, 2009 Members Share Posted February 15, 2009 Possible, but they were professional musiciens and knew what they were doing. oh come on now..... don't be fooled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cadence440 Posted February 16, 2009 Members Share Posted February 16, 2009 Possible, but they were professional musiciens and knew what they were doing. We're talking here about a guy who has been playing for 3 years and doesn't know a thing about music writing You'd be surprised, if they are not "trained" then they might be able to play it perfectly but not be able to describe to someone else what they are doing without playing it. Some people just have an innate sense of rhythm. For the rest of us we have to learn how to describe it so that our brain can label the things we hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NeverTheMachine Posted February 16, 2009 Members Share Posted February 16, 2009 i believe Led Zeppelin, Soundgarden, Metallica, Jimi Hendrix and many others have all done amazing things with time shifting like this. Its not that uncommon. It can sound totally bizarre, but in the context of a live band delivering the product it can work. the main issue with the examples we are listening to here is that it is a midi score. midi done cheesy makes anything sound downright goofy and wrong. in the context of a human feel, band situation, obtuse timing shifts can and do sound cool and amazing. +1 I actually liked how both of those versions sounded by the way. The thing about those bands when they had freaky time signatures is they didn't do it on purpose. It's just the way they wrote. I think both ways can work. If this is his riff you should just leave it that way. Possible, but they were professional musiciens and knew what they were doing. We're talking here about a guy who has been playing for 3 years and doesn't know a thing about music writing False statement. Yeah they knew what they were doing, but it's probably not the same way you think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members speierg Posted February 16, 2009 Members Share Posted February 16, 2009 I don't know...I, for one, appreciate it when something is done that is a little outside of the box. The trick is to compose something in an odd time signature that doesn't sound SO odd that the casual listener goes, "what the heck?" (or fill in a more appropriate word if you desire). At the same time though, I think the more musically advanced listeners will go, "cool, something other than the same old 4/4." At least that is how I react when I hear it done well. Sting has done some very catchy, radio-friendly songs in odd time signatures (7/4 and 5/4)...I bet most people would have no clue that there's anything different going on, but the musicians listening can appreciate it since it can be more difficult (for a band) to really be tight and play those odd time sigs cohesively. I also think it's hard to write stuff in 5/4 or 7/4 or whatever...seems like I'm always gravitating back to 4/4 or 3/4 without even realizing it because 99% of everything you've ever heard is in those time sigs. So, I guess it depends on what your goal is for the song (to answer the right versus wrong question). Neither one is right or wrong musically...different strokes for different folks. But, if you are going for mass appeal, the safer choice is your (4/4) choice. If your goal to be a bit more experimental or to challenge yourselves musically or to appeal to a more "avant garde" type of audience, I think the 5/4 stuff would be cool. All my opinion of course... hope that helps in some small way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members speierg Posted February 17, 2009 Members Share Posted February 17, 2009 Was just in my car listening to "When Your Mind's Made Up" by Glen Hansard and realized it was in 5/4 time. What a great flippin' song!!! It made me think of this thread, so I thought I'd go ahead and post this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Rimbaud Posted February 17, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2009 No problem with that but once more, this isn't a song with an odd rythm, it's a song in 4/4 with ONE riff part in 3/4, which doesnt make much sense I've looked at the song you're mentionning at it feels right. My thread is not about using ununsual time scales but about writing things making no sense and chocking the ears in a bad way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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