Critique of words without music

[blue2blue]

Exactly. I used to belong to a real-life songwriting workshop, where a bunch of us songwriters would meet once a month and sit together in a circle, offering critiques of each other's work. Then typically, the members would go home, make revisions to their work based on the feedback they received. So what is it that makes this forum so drastically different from that? Because it's online? Because the process happens much quicker than it would in real-life where people actually have to drive to a place? How about college writing classes, where you hand in your first draft to a professor who then suggests changes and revisions to be made? I don't know--maybe I'm missing something.

Right.

 

Of course, the 'writer's workshop' model is not necessarily one that works for everyone but, in my observations, it can be really helpful for many. It is how virtually every writing class I took in college approached the process of helping writers find their voice and improve their craft. And I've been in several workshops outside academe, as well, and found that those were often extremely helpful.

 

Of course, I think subject-oriented discussions of song craft and issues are important, too. And, for those who want to participate in discussions or just enjoy the fellowship of others who share many of the same interest in songwriting, but who aren't necessarily comfortable getting or giving feedback in a workshop situation, such discussions can be a valuable and hopefully enjoyable endeavor.

 

After all, I suspect that Pitar, despite his strong misgivings, is hanging around with us for a reason or reasons. Certainly, I think he feels like he has important views to get across -- and I welcome and appreciate that -- even as I engage with it in a direct manner. Pitar is a direct guy and I hope he appreciates my own directness. I'd certainly like to find a way to allow him to feel like his time here with us isn't 'wasted.'

[stickboymusic]

I'd certainly like to find a way to allow him to feel like his time here with us isn't 'wasted.'

 

Nah if it's a waste of his time then cool.... go do something better.

 

Not really feeling the loss this end.

[blue2blue]

I guess I just feel a certain affinity to my fellow, arch-cynical, misanthropic outsiders.

 

 

And, of course, I like a challenge.

[oldgitplayer]

 

With re OGP, I guess I'd forgotten that you, OGP, came here at the 'beginning' of your songwriting career. You jumped in with well developed aesthetics and insights and I just lost track of that. I suspect your dilemma is not unlike my own when I started writing -- I knew, to some extent, what was good, but what I was turning out was utter crap.

 

 

Yep - unfortunately / fortunately, I think I do have a reasonably well developed ear for what makes a good song, and understand how a good structure, melody, lyric etc. work together as a composite whole. But can I do it? Nah.

I think I've progressed beyond the 'crap' stage, but am still hitting well below the expectation I have of my own efforts.

 

Based on what Gerry Goffin said in an interview, that he and Carole wrote about 150 songs before anything charted, I started out with a target of 150 songs to serve my apprenticeship.

And one of these days I'll start pestering the good folks of this forum for some input on the WIP's.

[blue2blue]

Yep - unfortunately / fortunately, I think I do have a reasonably well developed ear for what makes a good song, and understand how a good structure, melody, lyric etc. work together as a composite whole. But can I do it? Nah. I think I've progressed beyond the 'crap' stage, but am still hitting well below the expectation I have of my own efforts. Based on what Gerry Goffin said in an interview, that he and Carole wrote about 150 songs before anything charted, I started out with a target of 150 songs to serve my apprenticeship. And one of these days I'll start pestering the good folks of this forum for some input on the WIP's.

We'll be ready when you are! Take it easy... but take it.

[Marshal]

Can I go back to bitching about this being a "Production Forum" ? ? ? ? ? ;) ;)

 

I participate in a couple different on-line forums, and face-to-face song critique circles. Each has it's inherent pluses and minuses. I'd say that 95% of what I get in terms of feedback just doesn't connect with me, and goes in one ear and out the other (one eye and out the other?). But filtering through all the noise, I seem to always get some nugget of information that changes that song (or the next one) in some small (or large) way that makes it better.

[BryanMichael]

.02, as someone that doesn't contribute to this forum, I just want to throw this out there.

IMO, lyrics CAN be "critiqued" on some criteria separate from the music. The problem I've always had with songwriting forums is that people rarely can stick to what I would consider "structural" critiques (which I would argue are more OBJECTIVE) and are easily drawn into the more subjective points. Throw in the resistance of writers hearing ANYTHING negative about their own work, along with the general lack of understanding as to what anyone else is really talking about (because terms, language choices, and style conventions mean something different to everyone) and you don't have a lot of productive conversations going on.

To me, lyrics are a small piece of specialized narrative, and as such are subject to critique for structure, form, language choice, grammar (tense) point of view, and innovative or clever use of language etc. While I feel these are MORE objective observations, they are of course, subjective as everything is.

For example, in my humble opinion (of course!) a well-written song kind of explores something with a beginning, middle, and end and we learn more or explore a different perspective in each of those phases while the chorus tends to be the main "thematic idea" of the song. It doesn't have to be Shakespeare, but I think you all understand what I'm talking about.

BUT

Rock and pop music rely as much on rhythm and vocalization as they do on the actual WORDS, so in many ways the words do become meaningless. de doo doo doo de da da da, doobie-doobie-doo, Do-run-do-run, Na na na na, hey hey, goodbye - etc.

So it depends on what you are looking for out of the critique...

[rhino55]

It is not necessary for lyrics to read well.
It doesn't hurt if they do.

[blue2blue]

.02, as someone that doesn't contribute to this forum, I just want to throw this out there. IMO, lyrics CAN be "critiqued" on some criteria separate from the music. The problem I've always had with songwriting forums is that people rarely can stick to what I would consider "structural" critiques (which I would argue are more OBJECTIVE) and are easily drawn into the more subjective points. Throw in the resistance of writers hearing ANYTHING negative about their own work, along with the general lack of understanding as to what anyone else is really talking about (because terms, language choices, and style conventions mean something different to everyone) and you don't have a lot of productive conversations going on. To me, lyrics are a small piece of specialized narrative, and as such are subject to critique for structure, form, language choice, grammar (tense) point of view, and innovative or clever use of language etc. While I feel these are MORE objective observations, they are of course, subjective as everything is. For example, in my humble opinion (of course!) a well-written song kind of explores something with a beginning, middle, and end and we learn more or explore a different perspective in each of those phases while the chorus tends to be the main "thematic idea" of the song. It doesn't have to be Shakespeare, but I think you all understand what I'm talking about. BUT Rock and pop music rely as much on rhythm and vocalization as they do on the actual WORDS, so in many ways the words do become meaningless. de doo doo doo de da da da, doobie-doobie-doo, Do-run-do-run, Na na na na, hey hey, goodbye - etc. So it depends on what you are looking for out of the critique...

You bet.

 

I think a flexible balance of objective and subjective evaluation can come in handy. After all, music and song are all about pushing those subjective buttons... but sometimes we need to talk about objective issues in order to explain subjective response. And, of course, other times, one may not have much subjective response... I know it can sometimes be difficult for me to work up much emotion about some topics or musical idioms (or to tamp down a negative response in some rare cases) and in those cases I typically fall back to a more objective approach in order to offer anything at all (or in the latter cases, to not let my personal reactions get in the way of the job at hand).

[LeonardScaper]

The problem I've always had with songwriting forums is that people rarely can stick to what I would consider "structural" critiques (which I would argue are more OBJECTIVE) and are easily drawn into the more subjective points. Throw in the resistance of writers hearing ANYTHING negative about their own work, along with the general lack of understanding as to what anyone else is really talking about (because terms, language choices, and style conventions mean something different to everyone) and you don't have a lot of productive conversations going on.

Excellent point....I just don't ever let the bastards get me down.

Good post........

[RickDieffenbach]

The problem I've always had with songwriting forums is that people rarely can stick to what I would consider "structural" critiques (which I would argue are more OBJECTIVE) and are easily drawn into the more subjective points. Throw in the resistance of writers hearing ANYTHING negative about their own work, along with the general lack of understanding as to what anyone else is really talking about (because terms, language choices, and style conventions mean something different to everyone) and you don't have a lot of productive conversations going on.

I don't agree with this black and white assessment.

Every board is made up of personalities. And every personality is different. This board has many conversations going on at any given time. Yes, some of them are circular, others go off on tangents, some of them lead no where. Some aren't worth participating in, many are. Some have useless comments, and some comments are gold nuggets.

But at the end of the day, what one gets out of a song board basically equals what you put into it. I can only speak for myself, but regular participation in this board has made an order of magnitude improvements in my songs. Not because there are top flight lyricists making specific suggestions to my songs - there are a number of them, and they have made some amazing suggestions. And not because some very capable songwriters make melodic and other musical suggestions - there are a number of them as well, and I have run with some of their ideas too.

The real reason is the very act of regular participation in a board like this, both as a writer of music and as a critiquer of music, accelerates the learning process. Again, I speaketh of me. But I'd bet this can be said for many others.

My 2 cents.

Rick

[LCK]

 

the very act of regular participation in a board like this, both as a writer of music and as a critiquer of music, accelerates the learning process. Again, I speaketh of me. But I'd bet this can be said for many others.

 

 

I think this is right. There's another aspect to it, at least from my perspective, which is the fact that coming here keeps the idea of being a songwriter up front in your mind every day.

 

Last year I wrote a song a day for straight 5 days, where in the past I might have written 5 songs a year if I was lucky. I was motivated to do that by rubbing shoulders with the people here.

 

So while the feedback is good, there are other things going on that may be even more important.

 

LCK

[BumbleBb]

Ha... if Pitar didn't exsit, maybe we'd have to invent him. Of course, I can only answer for myself, as we're all different. Let me break things up... Yes. Of course. But I find getting feedback from others to be helpful. I'm a pretty complex guy but I can't hold all points of view at once. And, clearly, neither can you. You don't even seem to be able to imagine another point of view, apparently. Many songwriters in the past have collaborated with others -- which is clearly dependent on just the kind of communication and critique you disclaim and, of course, as we know from reading about the 'golden age' of pop songwriting, some of our most respected and beloved pop craftspeople were products of the publishing 'sweatshops' of the Brill Buildings, where songwriters went to work everyday, hanging out with other songwriters, bouncing off ideas and getting feedback. On the contrary, people seem to be writing a LOT of songs. They may not be doing the actual writing IN the forum (although I've actually written a couple of songs straight into this BB) but they are certainly editing and shaping their songs, with the feedback and assistance of others. How so? I know I haven't asked anyone's permission to write what I want to write. Sometimes I ask for feedback. Sometimes that feedback helps me change a song. Sometimes it helps me feel OK ab out leaving it as it is. Sometimes I agree, sometimes not. But it's always helpful to me to varying degrees. Feedback/critique may not be helpful to everyone -- obviously, some folks don't respond well to critical comments from others. For those, such feedback may be problematic and they should probably try to find some better way of sussing out issues with their songs. I see it. Maybe the mote is in YOUR eye. Maybe you simply do not understand modesty or lack of arrogance. Not everyone is convinced they are in possession of all the answers. Ahem. Maybe you cannot recognize or understand people trying to help each other. Not every aspect of life fits into the stunted view of life as a zero-sum game. Some of us actually develop friendship and affection for those we think of as colleagues. Others have developed the perspective and maturity to work and cooperate with others they may not have any great fondness for because such an effort can be beneficial to both parties -- and can even help both parties rise above their differences in point of view or temperament. Of course not. And I certainly hope that if this place folded tomorrow that people would take what they've learned here and use it in the future. (I'd also hope -- even maybe expect -- that in such a case, folks would put together some kind of alternative on their own -- since, when I look at this forum, I see a real community that works together. Damn, does this have to be explained yet again? First and foremost, the works-in-progress rule is an unfortunately necessary barrier to keeping promo out of the forum. And that , whether you have the experience or insight to recognize it, is one of the main reasons this forum works. If we allowed promo, it would, sooner or later (and my guess is sooner) be one of those typical forums choked with "Check out my band" promo, with no real dialog or interaction. I've been online for a LONG time (since before the www) and I've seen that phenom over and over. Beyond that, of course, is the very common sense concern: with limited time and resources, why should I or anyone else bother critically analyzing and thinking about a song that is already finished and which will not benefit from that analysis and critique? Really. Is that so difficult to understand? I shouldn't think so. Wow, man. Heavy. What does it mean, though? I'm really sorry we don't match up to your lofty criteria. I've written well over 150 songs and my song blog/podcast has had over a a half million podcast downloads. The fact I'm a "non-writer" in your eyes means... absolutely nothing to me.

 

I actually think there is a lot of benefit in analyzing/critiquing a finished work. One, the writer may think the work is finished but based on feedback find that he or she wants to make an unexpected change. That's definitely happened to me before. Two, I believe both the writer and reader/listener benefit from analyzing a song. There can be conversation about the writer's process that helps inspire or educate other writers on the forum, there may be deeper thinking about the song that would not occur were people not looking at it closely in order to give feedback and input. The writer may think more explicitly about his or her writing process or the finished product in a way that wouldn't happen otherwise without that conversation and close input from others. Just because a work may be finished doesn't mean the songwriter, and listener, can't continue to learn from it.

 

I understand the reasoning given behind not wanting to have posts on completed songs, avoiding spam and a flood of promotional posts makes sense, but I definitely think there is inherent value in discussing and looking closely at finished works, or presumed-to-be finished works as well. Like some others posted on this thread, I generally don't like to work with feedback while I'm in the middle of writing. And that's fine, I can still benefit from the forum in a lot of ways even if I never end up posting a WIP. But I do think I'd also benefit from discussion about finished works by others. I don't see it as any different as analyzing a published song to get behind what makes the songwriting work and not work, which is something I'd guess most songwriters naturally do when listening to and thinking about existing music. And maybe I'd benefit by getting feedback on my own finished works, at a stage in the process when I can absorb the feedback without having it muddy up my own direction for that particular song. In other words, I could learn from the input of others and apply that to my general songwriting even if I don't apply it to that particular song.

 

Anyway, not meaning to be contrary, but just presenting another viewpoint. I particularly felt passionate about this because I came across a song I really really liked on this forum, a completed one, and I would have loved to see a whole thread on it so I could hear the viewpoint and inputs of others, the writer included, especially since many have so much more musical knowledge and experience here than I do. Again I understand the reasoning behind the rule, but I also regretted that opportunities like discussing a song like the one I very much enjoyed wouldn't be more readily available because of it.