Members SciHi Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 ... speaker should be on the way soon, and depending on how I feel I'll probably order an Alnico from Weber... Hope you ordered a 16 ohm speaker for the v5. It came stock with an 8 ohm but the OT is actually for a 16 ohm speaker, based on the turns ratio. And it seems to have a tighter bass response with the 16 ohm speaker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Hope you ordered a 16 ohm speaker for the v5. It came stock with an 8 ohm but the OT is actually for a 16 ohm speaker, based on the turns ratio. And it seems to have a tighter bass response with the 16 ohm speaker... ???? It comes stock with an 8 ohm speaker and Crate says it needs an 8 ohm speaker. What would a 16 ohm speaker do besides make it quieter? Where are you getting this info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Not to dis Mr. Fondue (Jim P), but if he is an EE I wonder why he wouldn't just recalculate the values for the caps/resistors and take advantage of the opamp circuit. Bypassing it seems a lazy way around the problem as it does provide a significant advantage when done properly. I struggled with the brightness of the tone and was able to get it under control retaining the opamp. 16 ohm speaker for the V5? V8 and earlier are 4 ohm but work fine with 8. Here's the stock V8/V508 schematic plus a version with my mods: http://www.verneandru.com/WebApp/Downloads/V8-rig/Modded-V8-schematic.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SciHi Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 ????It comes stock with an 8 ohm speaker and Crate says it needs an 8 ohm speaker. What would a 16 ohm speaker do besides make it quieter?Where are you getting this info? It is based upon the reflected impedance of the output transformer. The EL84 operates best with a reflected impedance in the 5k range. The turns ratio is the relative turns on the primary versus secondary of the output transformer. Very much like your power transformer, 120v AC comes in 300v AC comes out... You probably never liked math, but turn ratio squared times speaker impedance gives you the primary or reflected impedance of the output transformer. You get the best tube performance when your output transformer matches your power tube. The good thing is tubes can operate over a wide range of values and ranges of voltage, impedances etc. and still put out sound... Generally, small changes in speaker loud have small changes in tone quality. It can be harder on a tube to operate out of spec, and lead to early failure, but with some of the high grade tubes rated for 10,000 hours, what does 50% less lifetime really mean... So yes, run whatever you want, if you want to spend money making it sound the best possible, I recommend getting the correct impedance speaker for your amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SciHi Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Not to dis Mr. Fondue (Jim P), but if he is an EE I wonder why he wouldn't just recalculate the values for the caps/resistors and take advantage of the opamp circuit. Bypassing it seems a lazy way around the problem as it does provide a significant advantage when done properly. I struggled with the brightness of the tone and was able to get it under control retaining the opamp.16 ohm speaker for the V5? V8 and earlier are 4 ohm but work fine with 8.Here's the stock V8/V508 schematic plus a version with my mods:http://www.verneandru.com/WebApp/Downloads/V8-rig/Modded-V8-schematic.pdf Thanks, yea, totally different amps. Short the opamp and tone mods, I would not follow any of the others on the v5. The different PT, OT, and power rail, voltages, etc. Biased the 12ax7 way too warm, center bias with 1.5k cathodes for max headroom... Opamps are great, great buffers, booster, reverb drivers, and if they are noisy, right up front is not good. I replaced my v18 opamps (072's) with the high quality ones you recommended and the noise level reduction was fantastic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 It is based upon the reflected impedance of the output transformer. The EL84 operates best with a reflected impedance in the 5k range. The turns ratio is the relative turns on the primary versus secondary of the output transformer. Very much like your power transformer, 120v AC comes in 300v AC comes out... You probably never liked math, but turn ratio squared times speaker impedance gives you the primary or reflected impedance of the output transformer. You get the best tube performance when your output transformer matches your power tube. The good thing is tubes can operate over a wide range of values and ranges of voltage, impedances etc. and still put out sound... Generally, small changes in speaker loud have small changes in tone quality. It can be harder on a tube to operate out of spec, and lead to early failure, but with some of the high grade tubes rated for 10,000 hours, what does 50% less lifetime really mean... So yes, run whatever you want, if you want to spend money making it sound the best possible, I recommend getting the correct impedance speaker for your amp. While i do like math, im not an electrical engineer. What im getting out of this is anything that uses a el84 tube needs to have a 16ohm speaker load??? Or maybe that the specs of the output transformer call for a 16ohm but Crate being a company unfamiliar with making amplifiers said 8 ohm? While taking advice from a slightly disgruntled dude on the internet seems like a bitchin idea, im gonna go with what was in it stock and what the manufacture says the amp needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SciHi Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 ...What im getting out of this is anything that uses a el84 tube needs to have a 16ohm speaker load??? Or maybe that the specs of the output transformer call for a 16ohm but Crate being a company unfamiliar with making amplifiers said 8 ohm? Clearly you aren't understanding that it is based on the internal windings of an output transformer that determines what tube and what speaker combination works. And they make thousands of different combinations, and generally the higher quality output transformer have multiple taps on the windings so 4, 8, and 16 ohm speakers can all be used on the same amp. But it cost money to make add the extras, and mass volume companies save every penny possible. That is generally why cheap opamps are used, typically save pennies versus quality components with the best sound quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Clearly you aren't understanding that it is based on the internal windings of an output transformer that determines what tube and what speaker combination works. And they make thousands of different combinations, and generally the higher quality output transformer have multiple taps on the windings so 4, 8, and 16 ohm speakers can all be used on the same amp. But it cost money to make add the extras, and mass volume companies save every penny possible. That is generally why cheap opamps are used, typically save pennies versus quality components with the best sound quality. And you know what transformer the v5 uses? Where's a schematic saying this? You seem to be making the assumtion that Crate just pulled a number out of its ass, or at least it seems that way because im fairly certain that its not in Crates best interest to have amps exploded everywhere because they are running the stock speaker. Unless i see hard evidence, besides rantings about how mass volume companies are stupid and greedy, im gonna take this as ::blah::blah: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 A general FYI - LOUD, who bought Crate from St. Louis Music, really screwed up with the last [and it was the last because it killed the line] V series. Components were put in the wrong places, wrong components were used, power transformers would come loose in transit and smash tubes and such to pieces, etc. The concept of them spec'ing the wrong transformers is far from out of the question. They can all be modded into really solid amps, but out of the box they pretty much suck donkey-balls. This wasn't an case on the previous V's as they were engineered by St. Louis Music [who also owned Ampeg] and generally only needed minor tweeks to get acceptable tone from them. Some of them, like the V32, simply rock tone-wise, but the channel switching delay was a deal-breaker for me. The V16 is apparently awesome [and on my list] and the V8 absolutely kills after the mods I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 and the V8 absolutely kills after the mods I did. Yeah, the v33 was pretty much the worst amp ive ever played but the v5 isnt terrible, as long as you get rid of the craptacular stock speaker. I find it hard to believe they used the wrong transformer until i see actual evidence of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Yet on the V33 all it took was swapping the location of 2 resistors and it became a reasonably respectable amp. A few more simple mods and it totally smokes. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2118282-V33-Mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Yet on the V33 all it took was swapping the location of 2 resistors and it became a reasonably respectable amp. A few more simple mods and it totally smokes.http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2118282-V33-Mods Ive read that before, but i dont personally work on my amps, electricity and me dont do to well together. If someone would mod it for people i would be on it but stock its very flabby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members colejustesen Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 jrcorp, Looks like you got the tubes today.... hopefully in one piece??? Let me know what you think Cole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrcorp Posted April 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Hey everyone... sorry for being quiet, I tried to post the other day from my phone at work and the browser closed out. Just been busy between school and work, wish I had time to play and respond. Thanks for all the responses and discussion, glad it hasn't gotten too heated. Cole, I'll have to check my mail this morning. Thanks a lot, I'll have to figure a way to give you good feedback... and start swapping out tubes, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrcorp Posted April 13, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 13, 2011 Got my Jensen speaker in the mail from Antihero today, thank you sir! A day earlier than the USPS tracking suggested, too; kudos to them. I have a big assignment for school that I've been putting off and struggling with, so I'm trying my best to put off any hobbies or fun until I'm making progress there. But I can't wait to try a before, throw the parts in and have a ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted April 13, 2011 Members Share Posted April 13, 2011 Got my Jensen speaker in the mail from Antihero today, thank you sir! A day earlier than the USPS tracking suggested, too; kudos to them. I have a big assignment for school that I've been putting off and struggling with, so I'm trying my best to put off any hobbies or fun until I'm making progress there. But I can't wait to try a before, throw the parts in and have a ball. Thats theAntihero thank you very much:cop: Glad you got it a day earlier and hope it gets you closer to the sound you want. The stock speaker is so terribly godawful that i think you'll be suprised at the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrcorp Posted April 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 14, 2011 Well thanks a lot, theAntihero. I put the JAN Philips 12AT7 I received from Cole and the Jensen C10Q I received from Anti in the amp, and with a little time playing I can hear a huge difference. The speaker seems to help a lot - the sound is more crisp, clean, and maybe louder in general; though the highs are a lot louder, I was expecting this and don't mind it so much. Sometimes I like that kind of sound, and when I don't I can roll off the highs. Though I played before and after, I didn't pay a lot of attention to the before and kind of rushed putting the parts in 'cause I was excited. I should've recorded a part or something for a good comparison! But as for the tube... it's not as easy for me to tell the difference, but I can tell there's a bit more clean headroom. So now I'll play the amp this way for awhile, and see what I want to do. I doubt I'll feel a need to replace the speaker anytime soon, the 12AT7 should work fine for awhile... maybe I'll replace the EL84? But it'll do as a practice amp for now, maybe for a little recording if I get around to it. I still have to put some pedals in front of it and see what happens! I'm anxious to hear how that works. I want to put off any electrical work, but if I get the free time or feel a need, I'll look into replacing the opamp or how to fix up the circuit a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members colejustesen Posted April 14, 2011 Members Share Posted April 14, 2011 Sounds great! From what I have heard the JAN-Philips 12AT7 can darken things up.... thus the reason I suggested the Jan-Philips 5751 further up in this thread. I am glad you are digging it, and the speaker probably has the most effect on overall sound than doing tube swaps... Cole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrcorp Posted April 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 14, 2011 You're probably right. I wish I had a better ear - I can tell the difference, but it's not easy at all for me to put it into words. I'll be sure to order the 5751 though, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted April 14, 2011 Members Share Posted April 14, 2011 Well thanks a lot, theAntihero.I put the JAN Philips 12AT7 I received from Cole and the Jensen C10Q I received from Anti in the amp, and with a little time playing I can hear a huge difference. The speaker seems to help a lot - the sound is more crisp, clean, and maybe louder in general; though the highs are a lot louder, I was expecting this and don't mind it so much. Sometimes I like that kind of sound, and when I don't I can roll off the highs. Though I played before and after, I didn't pay a lot of attention to the before and kind of rushed putting the parts in 'cause I was excited. I should've recorded a part or something for a good comparison! But as for the tube... it's not as easy for me to tell the difference, but I can tell there's a bit more clean headroom.So now I'll play the amp this way for awhile, and see what I want to do. I doubt I'll feel a need to replace the speaker anytime soon, the 12AT7 should work fine for awhile... maybe I'll replace the EL84? But it'll do as a practice amp for now, maybe for a little recording if I get around to it. I still have to put some pedals in front of it and see what happens! I'm anxious to hear how that works. I want to put off any electrical work, but if I get the free time or feel a need, I'll look into replacing the opamp or how to fix up the circuit a bit. Glad you like it. See i told you once you had a speaker that wasnt made of plastic it would sound a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrcorp Posted April 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 14, 2011 Haha I let my brother bang on the old stock speaker with some drumsticks, and he dented the dome part pretty quick. So I'll probably toss it soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrcorp Posted September 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 9, 2011 Update! I adapted some of Verne Andru's V8 mods to my V5, trying to translate which components are which to the V5 schematic and going from there. As I don't have any parts on hand, I just did the mods involving removing components or replacing them with jumpers. I got the amp up and running afterwards, but as it was late and people were asleep I couldn't test it well. But I'm excited it works! Stayed up late ordering tubes from Doug's Tubes in NY and parts for modding from Mouser. Hopefully I got all the components right, and I ordered extras just in case. The Mouser order came out to less than $20 before shipping, not bad. Can't wait to get to work again in the next week and practice with the V5 in the meantime! I would love to have a nice little tube amp for practice instead of playing through the Hot Rod Deluxe... I have yet to personally obtain that sweet sound of tube distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrcorp Posted September 13, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 13, 2011 Received my tubes from Doug's yesterday and installed them. For the Crate, I bought a Mullard EL84 and a JAN Philips 12AT7. In hindsight, I'm not sure the Mullard makes sense mixed with a 12AT7 as it's advertised for its low headroom, but for the price it seems like a quality tube and better than the stock Sovtek. Though I don't play out or practice enough to justify the money I spend, I'm open to trying some different combinations. Not sure that I have the ears anyway, but I haven't tried comparing tubes much just yet. I think I noticed less noise in turning the volume control... I can turn up to around 2 or 3 o'clock without much noise where it was probably around noon or earlier. I like trying to find the sweet spot where guitar volume or my playing controls the amp break-up. I connected the stock 12" in my Hot Rod Deluxe to the V5 on a whim, and wow was there an improvement to my ears. A lot of the amp's trouble that I hear is too much in the mid-highs and not enough in the lows, and going to a bigger speaker helped a lot. I can't help but try and brainstorm a way to run a 12", either making or buying a cab. Just curious, for those who have a similar-sized amp in the Crate V family, what do you have to say about speakers or tubes you've tried? I want to figure out a convenient 1x12" setup and also try an Alnico as I've never had one in an amp. Next for me will hopefully be more of Verne's mods when my parts come in, then maybe a new tone stack down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrcorp Posted September 17, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 17, 2011 Brief update... received my components from Mouser last night, but my work schedule flips at the end of the week so I've been tired most of the day and got nothing done. I'm also nervous about doing the work and properly draining the filter caps as I haven't done it before on this amp. I know how stupid that is and I'll be sure to pull out the multimeter and check things out first. So anyhow, I hope that goes down soon... excited to complete another set of mods and see where it leads in tone. I've been thinking a lot about trying to make a simple little head cabinet with the existing chassis so that it would be more convenient to play different speaker combinations. I know that's probably a bigger job than this amp is worth and I may change my mind if I'm not satisfied with the sound I can get, but playing a 12" was something else and I think the combo is kind of heavy and awkward for its size to use with external cabs. I'm going to have some free time and I want to try some different projects, so this seems like something fun and useful within my ability. I managed to buy a vintage Alnico 10" from a forumite on TheGearPage, so I'm looking forward to trying that out as well. I'd love to hear thoughts and feedback. After I perform more of the mods as Verne has laid out in his V8 schematic, I'll be looking forward to upgrading the tone stack and seeing what other possibilities there are. This amp is a lot more convenient and appropriate in volume level for my situation, so I'll keep trying to get the most out of it for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rock_mumbles Posted September 17, 2011 Members Share Posted September 17, 2011 I've modded my V5 ... the speaker problem isn't the 10" speaker it's the too small open cabinet that functions as a megaphone ... I have had a C10Q in mine they really need to be really broken in to sound OK ... I also have had a Weber Sig 10 Ceramic in it, I think it does sound a bit better than the C10Q but my C10Q isn't really broken in, check this out: http://www.unclespot.com/C10Q.html I've totally changed the circuit and it's pretty decent now but still limited. I bypassed the op amp input stage, pretty much made the preamp like a simple Marshall-like circuit with a Framus mid-cut control. The tone control is the 'character/drive control' turned down it's Fender-ish scooped mids and cleaner, open it up and it's more Marshall like with lots of mids and has more distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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