Johnny's DIY Guitar Build Log

[Johnny Two Tone]

Yeah, sorry about taking a few weeks (at least) off of finishing the guitar. Once I got to the painting stage I ran into major trouble finding supplies from any place in my city. Only ONE paint supply place, out of dozens, sells water based, colored lacquer in a pale (as opposed to aerosol cans), which I found yesterday, but no where sells grain filler. I'm going to have to order the filler and wait for it to come in before I can move ahead.

 

Luckily I'm finished college so I have at least a few days off before I get a new job going, so I'll try to buckle down and get this done. I may just cover the body with wood filler.

[Johnny Two Tone]

Okay, well it's official: There isn't one single store (or place of any sort) in my city that sells lacquer in anything but clear and white in bulk form - it's either black, white, and clear in aerosol spray or white and clear in bulk... AND THAT'S IT. There also isn't a single place in this city that sells grain filler. I could order some from within Canada but the freight on such a thing has a ridiculous price added to the cost.

 

So, I went ahead and coated the entire friggin' guitar in wood filler. QUALITY! Anyway, after that I sanding the whole thing with a palm sander and by hand with four steps of grit: 120, 220, 360, and 600. So, it's about as smooth as I could ever hope to get it. As I move my hand over the some spots I can tell that I'm not the greatest craftsman in the universe (I did everything but the beveling my hand) so there is the odd worble spot, but nothing you can see; only feel. And at this stage in the process that it good enough for me God damn it!

 

Here's a pic of the guitar complete cleaned up after that botched black coat from before.

 

And here's a pic of the lacquer that will being on there and the sprayer I will be using.

 

Since I can't get black bulk lacquer my plan here is to use the bulk clear lacquer you see in the pick there for a few coats at first, then use the black lacquer can spray, then use the clear stuff again for the top coat.

 

...I'm thinking my next guitar will simply have a satin stain finish...

 

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention that I will be using a whine red acrylic lacquer spray paint that I found at an auto body shop for the red burst-y-thing I'm planning. I have to idea what "acrylic lacquer" is so I'll having my fingers crossed while I spray will it.

[Belva]

Acrylic and nitro are usually compatible. I've used clear Reranch nitro followed by Duplicolor clear acrylic without any problems. The clear Reranch was also applied over Duplicolor acrylic blue. But it never hurts to do a scrap first. When you lay it on too heavy is where you run into problems with any paint. Specially laquer. It melts the previous coat when you put it on. It's supposed to do that.

[Johnny Two Tone]

I think I put the first layer on too heavy and it wasn't able to level out properly 'cause I have a bit of pitting again. With my next coat I'm going to thin the holy hell out of the lacquer and spray very lightly. After the insane amount of surface prep I did this time I've concluded that there is simply no way I'm going to be able to get the first lacquer layer dead flat - the mahogany is simply too porous.

 

With my next guitar I will utilize two learned lessons: don't use large grain mahogany and don't mix rounding and beveling - one or the other. My next guitar will most likely be a V shape (rhoads style), flat everything but with beveled edges, neckthrough.

 

Using neckthrough actually wasn't nearly as hard as I perceived it would be prior to starting the build.

[Belva]

Grain filler, sanding sealer first. Order online if you can't find it locally. You'll never get it right without these. Also make sure it's a laquer sanding sealer. Poly is an option but I think you'll need to get back to bare wood & fill the grain first. Not as pretty but plenty durable.

[Johnny Two Tone]

Sweet zombie Jesus! I found lacquer!!!

 

I went to a store that I had gone to like a million times and was looking for bondo and BAM lacquer, in liter cans, in ready to spray form - and colors and even lacquer based primer. 'Tis a good day! It must have been a new product or something because I had asked the workers if they carried the stop and they said no, I went there with a friend before and he also couldn't find it, and I stood in the same isle looking at the enamel and didn't see it.

 

I'm still {censored} out of luck as far as the grain filler goes but I thinking that I'll phone a couple of places and use the phrase "Sanding sealer" just in case they were to retarded to put two and two together when I was asking for grain filler.

 

EDIT: Oh, the lacquer brand is Dupli-Color

[bierz]

Hey,

 

Been reading this forum for many years now, but never registered.

 

I saw your frustration with grain filler and thought I could be of help.

 

 

You can fill gran with 2 part epoxy that you can buy pretty easily at hobby/home stores. You just mix the two parts and spread it on the guitar with a credit card or squeegee. You can read more about it at reranch. I don't know if I'm allowed to post a link to a thread there, but you can search, or let me know if I can do that.

[Belva]

Bierz, welcome to the dark side. We're here to help each other out. What's this epoxy grain filler method? OF COURSE you can post links! I'm here to learn. I started here just over a year ago and since then I've opened up a stringed instrument repair business, learned a bunch about setup, finishing, fret work and everything else I've needed. I can even do my own nuts now!

[Johnny Two Tone]

Well, it turns out EVERYONE in this city sells Sanding Sealer (though, no one seems to know what it is until you ask and they go blindly looking for it) and yet not one person could put two and two together when I was asking for grain filler. Oh, well.

 

So, I sanded the headstock to perfect and have applied a couple coats of the lacquer based primer. Everything working out so far. I hope the acrylic lacquer spray can of metallic whine red I got from the auto body place is compatible with the lacquer I'm spraying with the compressor 'cause there's absolutely no chance in hell of finding an alternative.

 

I'll post some pics after I get some more painting done.

[Belva]

Go thin. As previously stated laquer paints usually work well together. Also do you know the rule of threes? 3 LIGHT passes 3 minutes apart equals one coat.

Do one coat, wait 3 hours and do another. Do this 3 times in a day. Wait 3 days, lightly wet sand and do it all again until done. When you have all the paint on wait at least 3 weeks before wet sanding & polishing. You can add time/days but never go faster than this schedule. Laquer seems to dry fast, but to be fully cured it takes 3 years. Another rule of threes.

[Average_Joe]

 

Go thin. As previously stated laquer paints usually work well together. Also do you know the rule of threes? 3 LIGHT passes 3 minutes apart equals one coat. Do one coat, wait 3 hours and do another. Do this 3 times in a day. Wait 3 days, lightly wet sand and do it all again until done. When you have all the paint on wait at least 3 weeks before wet sanding & polishing. You can add time/days but never go faster than this schedule. Laquer seems to dry fast, but to be fully cured it takes 3 years. Another rule of threes.

 

 

Interesting. I had not heard of the rule of threes.

My recent lacquer job just worked out kind of that way. I did 3 lite coats a night for 3 nights, skipped a few days and did it again til my rattle can ran out, and then I waited until I could hold it up to my nose and no longer smell solvents before I wet sanded & polished, which was about 3 weeks.

[Belva]

Exactly correct. The nose knows. It quit "gassing out". That means it's ready to polish. There are variations on this theme. But if you stick to the general idea here you will have a nice paint job. Providing you got the surfaced prepped. Someone else here made the comment that when the hard work is done, then you can paint. Sooooooo true!

[Johnny Two Tone]

Today I sanded more than I've ever sanded before! I used 6 levels of sand paper from 150 to 1000 grit, corrected a small worble with my router, and applied 8 coats of sanding sealer. The sanding sealer seems to be working pretty well. For some reason some spots became scratchy after applying the first coat or two of the sealer but after 8 coats it's like a layer of plastic over the wood.

 

Tomorrow I'm going to do the first bit of sanding before more sealer if necessary, then its primer time.

[Johnny Two Tone]

Wow, FAIL!

 

So, after the 8 coats of sanding sealer and waiting about 15 hours I went to do the first bit of sanding before more sealer coats and boy, did that get {censored}ed up. For one thing my book here told me to paint the sealer on with a brush as opposed to spraying since you want to get a nice heavy coat each time and simply sand down unevenness between every 5-8 coats. But, while sanding, the bumpiness was not proving to sand down easily and eventually I started sanding right through the plastic-ish layer to the point of peeling large bits of sealerl; peeling to the point of no return. So, after giving up I decided I'd remove the sealer and try again by spraying but the thinner I have did nothing more than sort of melt the sealer making it a goo-y mess.

 

Luckily it did seems that melting the sealer allowed it to smooth out easily but I still have the issue of some patches have no sealer. And now I have a headache from breathing too many thinner fumes.

 

Ca va mal.

[Belva]

I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you. I had the same problem. I had to take it all the way off. I used laquer thinner, rubber gloves and a red scotchbrite pad. Then spray it on. I follow the rule of threes here too. I do go a bit heavier than with the topcoat but not much. When you get to the point where you have a dull, even surface then you can proceed to the next step. And 3 coats should be enough. But you may need more more. The weather in the Pac NW has lots to do with it. Double your waiting periods if you have to. If you have a space heater you can use it as a high tech redneck paint curing device. Just don't get the work too close to it.

[Johnny Two Tone]

I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you. I had the same problem. I had to take it all the way off. I used laquer thinner, rubber gloves and a red scotchbrite pad. Then spray it on. I follow the rule of threes here too. I do go a bit heavier than with the topcoat but not much. When you get to the point where you have a dull, even surface then you can proceed to the next step. And 3 coats should be enough. But you may need more more. The weather in the Pac NW has lots to do with it. Double your waiting periods if you have to. If you have a space heater you can use it as a high tech redneck paint curing device. Just don't get the work too close to it.

 

Well, thanks for telling me ahead of time, buddy!

 

Haha, oh well. I've already done two 'do-overs' so adding another isn't going to ruin my day. Though, running out of thinner, at 10 bucks a pop, over and over is annoying.

 

When I think about it now I really have no friggin' idea why I followed the book's advice to use 8 coats of sealer. I mean the primer itself acts as a filler and is actually easy to see when you're applying it. Applying too much plastic sealer just sounds like a recipe for disaster, as I have now learned. Well, at least the next guy building a guitar, whom first reads this threads, will know ahead of time what not to do.

[nickeroo]

New to this thread, but for if you have to paint on your sealer, use a cheap foam brush, no lines or runs, a nice smooth coat.

 

Or a sanding sealer spray works well! Winter's not the best time to go a-painting but it can be done. Just take everything slow and be patient. You can't rush the job. I found this to my cost a few times. Starting fresh just is the easiest thing to do sometimes.

 

Personally I've had so many do-overs in my builds...and you learn from them for sure.

 

bierz's way of using epoxy works great for mahogany. I used it on a dead and battered Tele, which had many gouges and so on. After heavy planing/sanding, I managed to get a passable smooth surface. Doing the epoxy thingie helped get it very flat. It's a time consuming method for grain filling, you literally have to do about 2 square inches a time, but it works well.

 

I'd advise you to also go ahead and look at reranch forums too. Some of the projects there are amazing, and the people ALWAYS helpful, just like here. I had a ton of good advice for my problems.

 

Good luck and keep going, but go slow, Joe. You'll get there.

 

:

[pjackson92]

http://www.reranch.com/reranch/viewtopic.php?t=32892&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

heres a link to the epoxy grain filling prcedure

[Johnny Two Tone]

So, after taking off all of the badly done sanding sealer I re-sanded the body and then SPRAYED on four coats of the sealer. Spraying definitely made the difference; it went on far more evenly and there are zero blobbing or streaking spots. It does, however, go on far lighter and those first four coats weren't nearly enough. So, today I sanded lightly (not down to smooth, just enough to help the next coats go on evenly) and sprayed another coat. I'll probably spray on another three coats, let it dry properly, then sand again (this time to totally smooth) then get on with the primer.

 

One thing that sucks about spraying sealer is that it clogs the {censored} out of the spray gun. I had that thing dunked in thinner over night and it still had some spittle problems today. Luckily I have two spray guns so I won't have to worry about that when I move over to the paint.

[nickeroo]

I used an aerosol sealer and gave up after using 1 whole can. I much prefer a glooping it on one coat at a time.

 

For sprayed sealer out a gun, I'd recommend a whole buttload more than 3 but I have no experience with gun-ed sealer.

[Johnny Two Tone]

^Yeah, I'll keep doing three coats then sand repeating until I feel that it's just right. I REALLY don't want to have to remove everything for the fifth time.

[nickeroo]

Have you read the reranch 101? I followed it step by step, it's very good.

 

http://home.flash.net/~guitars/ReRanch101.html

 

You probably have.

 

For sealer coats, I always hit with 200 if it had furrows or was uneven. Then 400, then respray or recoat. Last sand before my primer was 400 again. Remove all shiney spots as it says and you're good to go. Your base is your sealer coat, and your base is what counts the most. Can't really rush it. If you ahve the nice flat sealer coat, everything is "gravy".

[Belva]

Have you read the reranch 101? I followed it step by step, it's very good. http://home.flash.net/~guitars/ReRanch101.html You probably have. For sealer coats, I always hit with 200 if it had furrows or was uneven. Then 400, then respray or recoat. Last sand before my primer was 400 again. Remove all shiney spots as it says and you're good to go. Your base is your sealer coat, and your base is what counts the most. Can't really rush it. If you ahve the nice flat sealer coat, everything is "gravy".

:thu:

[Johnny Two Tone]

So, I finished the sealer (which sucked hard) and moved on to the primer.

 

Here's a pic. of the guitar with 4 coats of primer:

 

I'll so one more primer coats before sanding it to super smooth, then start applying the Jet Black Dupli-Color lacquer. The funny thing about the guitar is that the width I ended up go with is far FAR fatter than I had originally drawn it to be, and intended it to be, but I made it fat because after playing around with different sizes the greater width simply felt right. This whole guitar seems to be more about comfort than anything with it's scooped bottom for easy classical position playing, it's extra width for better body contact, the massive arm taper and it's extra large horn groove for easy upper fret access. It may not be the prettiest guitar in the world but it's a damn comfortable one.

 

To hang the guitar I simply used one of those guitar wall hanger and screwed it to the rafters, as seen here:

 

Tomorrow my color lacquer journey begins.

 

Oh, you last thing: I was really surprised by how thinned out the black lacquer is. It's like water (but opaque none-the-less) and that's going to make it a bitch to spray on without causing runs. I'm going to go insanely slowly with that stuff. Since the clear lacquer I have isn't "ready to spray" style I will probably thin it out, with lacquer thinner, a little less than the black.

[Belva]

With the weather conditions being what they are I recommend waiting a week to start spraying the laquer. Just to be safe. And spray light coats of the black. If you try to get color in three coats you're going too thick. With it being so thin it may take 20 coats to get it right. Patience is the key here. And I know patience wears thin, pun intended, because you want to be done and play the damn thing.