Taylor vs Takamine

[bmwarner88]

Hi

 

I have decided to purchase a new acoustic guitar fairly soon and have narrowed it down to 2 models. They are both excellent guitars, but I was wondering if anybody owns either one and could give me some feedback about them. Here are the two I am considering:

 

Taylor 614ce or 814ce

Takamine ENV460SC

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

Thanks

[Joost]

Well, since I had to make a similar decision earlier this year and bought a Taylor 814CES, you could say I'm biased. I've looked up the Takamine ENV460SC and I must say: very cool looking guitar.

Also, I like the chromatic tuner built into the preamp and the bearclaw.

 

But ofcourse, (and everyone will tell you this), the choice is in the playing. How do they sound and how do they play? I have played many acoustic before I bought mine. I was a little sceptical about Taylor at first and was looking for a custom shop Cort NTLCE Custom (which has almost similar specs to the 814 and the ENV460SC: Master grade solid Englemann spruce top / Solid rosewood back & sides / Mahogany neck / Ebony fretboard / Ebony bridge / Bone nut & Saddle / Flamed maple wood binding on body, fretboard and headstock / Inlaid abalone soundhole rosette / Grover Super Rotomatic tuning machine / FISHMAN Prefix Plus & Matrix pickups).

It was really great value for money. It is built in the custom shop, so I thought: no contest, especially since the wood is master grade.

However, then the store clerk came to me with the Taylor and I didn't even want to like it, since I was in love with the Cort. But then I played the first chords and I was sold. Not one of the other guitars sounded like that: not the Takamines (they had the ENV460 there too), not the Corts, not the Martins, not the Santa Cruz and not the Bourgois.

 

One other thing to consider is the technical side of the guitar. Taylor has some innovations, which you will love or hate. The NT-neck design makes it one of the most playable guitars out there, but it also means saying goodbye to the dovetail joint. Also, the ES pickup system on the Taylor is unparalleled as far as I'm conserned: no more feedback issues, simple controls and the best, most natural amplified acoustic sound out there.

 

If you have any more specific questions, don't hesitate to mail or reply.

 

Hope to have helped,

-A Taylor-sceptic-turned-fan.

 

ps: the difference between the 614 and the 814 is quite substantial. I looked at the 614 too, but I love a full sound, with a solid bottom-end. The 614 was brighter, but lacked the depth of the rosewood.

[SpoonyJank]

I'm biased in the other direction (which is rare). I haven't played that tak either but I sure wouldn't mind doing so. Most taylors don't really appeal to me, but some are super sweet. Like-wise most people don't realize that Takamine can make some super-nice guitars when they actually want to. I think they may have gotten better at making nicer guitars recently. Plenty of people hate Taks enough to not want to pick one up again. I think they got stereotyped as "that company that makes $400 stage guitars" somewhere along the line. I've played a few horrible ones myself. Its not really a company I would feel good ordering something from (quite unlike taylor). but if you play one and you really like it, odds are you'll be saving a lot of money; or you'll probably just spend more and be like this guy ->

 

Both companies have top-of-the-line pick-ups. Takamine pick-ups are a lot simpler and less massive but still manage to have a really nice plugged in tone, and they're really well installed. The expression system is a bit over-hyped but its still definitely one of the best (if not the best) pre-installed system there is.

[ryanspeer]

As the owner of a 2002 614ce, I can say that I have yet to play a more beautiful sounding guitar. When I was first shopping for a new acoustic, I thought I had my heart set on some breed of Martin or Gibson. I really didn't give Taylors much of a second look until a salesman at a small store in downtown Seattle sat me down for about an hour and answered each and every question I had about tone woods, different models and body styles, tonal characteristics, etc. They happened to have a solid wall of nothing but Taylors with many of the new harder-to-find models (K14, 914ce, etc.). Comparing the Taylor to a Martin or even a Gibson is absolutely no contest. Comparing it to any Takamine I've ever played is even MORE of a no-contest. What it all comes down to though is your personal ear for music. Don't buy something because it's surrounded by hype. Buy it because it speaks to you.

 

Personally, I'm not that thrilled about Takamine's pre-amp/piezo combo. It's not "bad" in that sense, but it's nowhere near the Fishman Blender system that I have on my 614ce and is absolutely nowhere near the new Taylor ES amplification. With the Takamine if you're playing loud through a PA system, you'll suffer with the good ol' fashioned piezo quack. If you play with the Fishman Blender, you can blend between the piezo and a condensor mic to get a variety of different tonal options (the more you change the blend towards the mic, the less quack). With the ES, you can push the volume up as loud as you can possibly bear and have no feedback or quack.

 

Personally, if I could buy another acoustic, it'd more likely than not be a Taylor just because the quality of their workmanship is absolutely impecable. Their natural EQ (unplugged) is second-to-none with a perfect balance of bass, mids and treble. Their volume projection puts Martins, Gibsons and Larrivee's to shame.

 

However, like I said earlier, if the Takamine speaks to you in a way that the Taylor doesn't, then maybe it's the correct instrument for you. Don't make a hasty decision though regardless of how much a salesman might try to pressure you into it. Play the guitars for an hour one day, put them down and then come back the following day. See what you think of them then. It all comes down to making an educated decision.

[franchelB]

While it's pretty cool to have a solid-rosewood back and side guitar for under $2,000, the pre-amp is not that impressive compared to a Fishman Prefix or Taylor ES.

[SpoonyJank]

I can easily understand taking a taylor over a takamine because of reputation, but have you guys ever atually plugged in a Takamine? I understand that the expression system is awesome but there I find it hard to beleive that you don't like Takamine pickups. I mean no offense but just because something has like 5 different pickups and only 2 knobs doesn't really mean its the holy grail.

[JasonA]

No opinion on Taks, since the only ones I've tried were in Guitar Center, and therefore probably worse sounding than they should have been. However, "[Taylor's] volume projection puts Martins, Gibsons and Larrivee's to shame" has to be one of the sillier statements I've heard on one of these boards...

[Terry Allan Hall]

Also might want to consider trade-in/resale values...you can get pretty much every penny you pay for a Taylor back out of it when/if you turn it, the same way you can Gibsons, Martins, Guilds, etc...older models sometimes bring in more than originally paid.

 

Even top-of-the-line Taks rarely resell for more than half the original cost, if that...

[ryanspeer]

Originally posted by JasonA No opinion on Taks, since the only ones I've tried were in Guitar Center, and therefore probably worse sounding than they should have been. However, "[Taylor's] volume projection puts Martins, Gibsons and Larrivee's to shame" has to be one of the sillier statements I've heard on one of these boards...

Do the hands on research yourself and you'll see EXACTLY what I mean. Martins have beautiful tone. Different than a Taylor or Gibson. The same for Gibson: great tone. If you're buying a guitar based on tone and tone alone, then the three of those give you a fairly broad spectrum of tonal characteristics. Compare a Taylor side-by-side with a Martin and you'll hear a HUGE difference in volume. Maybe it's just the maple back and sides of my 614ce, but when comparing it side-by-side with a comperable Gibson (can't remember the model, but with the same tone woods), the volume difference is incredible. I'm not dissing on Gibson's or Martin's tone, but just stating the obvious, that they don't put out as much volume as a Taylor.

 

Now, before someone gets on a soapbox and tries to defend their favorite brand, consider the fact that the bracing inside a guitar gives almost, if not more, input into the tonal characteristics and volume projection of a guitar as the wood itself. Pick up a Tacoma (good ol' local manufacturer about an hour away) and you'll hear HUGE volume. Their tone doesn't really impact me in a huge way, but they have incredible volume. Compare that side-by-side with the Lowden that I played in a shop less than 4 hours ago, and again, there's no comparison. I'm not saying the Lowden is a piece o' crap because it's not. It's just that it's constructed differently.

 

The same holds true for Taylors. Their internal bracing may very well differ slightly (or in a huge way) from that of Martin, Gibson, Larrivee, Tacoma, Lowden, etc. All I know is that I hear some of the most balanced and beautiful tone from MY guitar that can't be matched by anything else I've tried to date, as well as volume projection (due in part to my choice of model and it's respective wood) that isn't matched by any Martin or comperable Gibson I've ever played. Tacoma gives Taylor a big run for the money in terms of volume, but Taylor still takes the cake in terms of overall tone in my book.

 

I hope my explanation of my earlier comment made sense?

[ryanspeer]

 

Originally posted by SpoonyJank I can easily understand taking a taylor over a takamine because of reputation, but have you guys ever atually plugged in a Takamine? I understand that the expression system is awesome but there I find it hard to beleive that you don't like Takamine pickups. I mean no offense but just because something has like 5 different pickups and only 2 knobs doesn't really mean its the holy grail.

 

I'm definitely not trying to insinuate that the Tak's pre-amp is a piece of junk. It's not in the least. I have played them plugged in before and they are stage-worthy. Heck, Garth Brooks, Toby Keith, Bruce Springstien, etc., play them from the stage and it doesn't hold them back.

 

It's just that in comparing the Tak's pre-amp to the Taylor's ES comes out with the Taylor being the clear winner. It even takes the cake over my Fishman Prefix system (and it's a sweet system!). If you're going to be playing a guitar through a PA system, then the electronics are incredibly important.

 

If I can ramble for just a minute, I'm looking into picking up a 12-string some time soon. In playing a few today, the unplugged tone of a guitar is obviously very important, but if it doesn't have electronics the complement and enhance it (vs. coloring the tone and sucking the life out your guitar's clarity like an acoustic I used to own did - hence my distain for Dean and their old "Shadow" pre-amp - thank God they switched to Fishman now), I look elsewhere. If I find a guitar with great unplugged tone and electronics that are first-class, then I'm much more apt to give a second and third look and eventually buy the guitar with the fancy electronics (again, as long as it's a quality UN-plugged guitar as well). If you're playing in front of 100+ people, the true acoustic tone of your instrument won't amount to a hill of beans if what they're hearing through the PA isn't quality.

 

That's what I mean when I say that I'd choose the Taylor and it's system over a Takamine and it's pre-amp. It's not garbage in the slightest, but in comparison, it doesn't take the blue ribbon.

[bmwarner88]

Thanks everybody who replied. I think I am leaning towards the Taylor.

 

Just one last question. I know that Taylors are known as not the most durable guitar. What is this based on? Has anybody had any trouble with their Taylor not holding up? Or does this mean that the Taylor is just made more for finger style as to pick. I am about 60% pick 40% finger style. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks

[ryanspeer]

Hmmmm... I haven't heard that at all, actually. I can't imagine why "holding up" would be much of an issue unless you're really slamming on the thing on stage. I don't imagine that's too common with fingerstyle? Seriously though, I don't imagine you'll have any problems at all - with either a Taylor or a Takamine. I play my 614ce at church and play some pretty hard songs nearly each week (not your typical old-school Bill Gaither stuff - I'm referring to David Crowder, Chris Tomlin, Charlie Hall, etc.). No problems in the slightest after almost two years. Yes, there's the occasional string breaking, but that's my fault - not the guitars.

 

You shouldn't have a problem with a guitar holding up at all - especially in the price range you're looking at.

[Joost]

Well, I haven't heard anything like that. All I know is that Taylor has great construction, great workmanship and a widely-known commendable customer service. Also, the guitar comes with a limited lifetime guarantee, so I don't think you'll have a problem with that.

In short, In my experience, there's no problem and it even holds up great to minor denting! (I've had a few moments when I thought I had my first dent, and nothing showed!)

[redman]

 

However, "[Taylor's] volume projection puts Martins, Gibsons and Larrivee's to shame" has to be one of the sillier statements I've heard on one of these boards... ...

 

 

I'll have to agree with this. It's good that you like your Taylor as they are fine instruments. But really now. You make no mention of models #s you played only a blanket statement. If you said you found your Taylor 614ce to project slightly better than certain Martins, Gibsons or Larrivee's that would be one thing, but "puts them to shame", nobody is going to buy it. At least nobody that has played and compared many of the different models.

[JasonA]

 

I hope my explanation of my earlier comment made sense?

 

 

Nope.

 

I've played Martin dreads that could have drowned out any Taylor I've ever heard.

 

I owned a Taylor x14 model for a while, and I've heard Larrivee Ls that could easily best it for volume (especially a L-03BW I played!).

 

In the OM size that I prefer I especially hear the difference. The Taylor x12 guitars I've tried (and I have tried several) have been much quieter than the comparable Larrivee and other OMs.

 

Now, there are some great Taylors. In particular I've heard a 714 model that was really full and rich, unlike the "thin and reedy" rap that Taylors often get. But I'll stand by my comment that your blanket statement about volume and projection is silly and just doesn't jibe with the experience of most of us. I've owned Taylors, Martins, Larrivees, and a host of non-factory guitars, so it has nothing to do with defending my favorite brand. But I've done the side by side. And more importantly, owned both. (Side by sides in the stores are often marred by unequal string type and life, bad setups, etc.)

[guitarcapo]

Taylor has just recently changed their bracing inside their guitars radically so I'm surprised at all the experts saying "Taylors sound like this..." The new Taylors sound a lot different than the ones from a year ago so which guitars are you talking about?

Try one of the newer ones before you make the statement that they aren't loud or don't have enough bass. I think you'll be surprised.

As for Taylor vs Takamine..I always felt that takamines had great plugged in sound but that The big 3 USA acoustic manufacturers sounded better played acoustically. The newer Taylor Expression pickup might level the playing field there too.

[JasonA]

I don't know if that was directed at me or not, but I never said Taylors weren't loud or didn't have bass. I only disagreed with the categorical assertion that they had more volume and projection than Larrivee and Martin.

 

For the record, the only Taylors that have had their bracing changed are the upper level dreads (the x10s). The x14s and x12s have not changed. It's quite true I haven't tried the revoiced dreads, mostly because I just plain don't like dreads in general.

 

But I will agree about the ES system. I think it sounds really good for a pickup. It's not a mic replacement or anything, but when it's working correctly (see the Taylor forum for the many bugs this year) it sounds very good.

[redman]

I don't think JasonA or myself were trying to say that Taylors didn't have bass or are not loud enough. I think what both of us were saying is the statement that they put Martins, Gibsons and Larrivees to shame is just a silly statement.

[ryanspeer]

In an effort to put to rest that statement of mine, just chalk it up to zealous enthusiasm for what I feel is one of the most premier brands on the market today.

 

I didn't compare a Martin dreadnaught to a Taylor grand auditorium or visa-versa. That's comparing apples to oranges in my opinion. I compared the Taylor x14's (grand auditorium's) to comperable Gibsons. I compared them both to as close as possible body size/styles as I could find from Martin as well. Do Martin dread's have great volume? Yes they do. I however, don't really care for dreads that much. A grand auditorium sized guitar was what I'd been pining away for, for several years. In that respect, guitars with comperable body size/style (roughly grand auditorium) weren't able to meet the volume projection of the Taylor 514's, 614's, 714's, 814's and 914's. Throw a K14 in there and it blows the roof off of the competition (IMHO).

 

How would a Taylor dread compare to a comperable Martin or Gibson? Don't know, don't care. Dread's aren't my cup o' tea. In the 12-string world a dread would be pretty much ideal for me, I think, but not for my main 6-string. When I can afford to look for a second 6-string, I'd likely give Martin dread's a look-see simply because of their tonal differences and characteristics.

 

Again, when I first went looking for a quality $1500+ acoustic, I honestly thought I'd be buying a Martin or Gibson. Taylors never really "clicked" with me prior to having sat down for that hour with the salesman and having played the 8 or 9 different models that I did - then comparing them to the Martins and Gibsons that I had been eyeing. So, in the grand auditorium realm, pretty much every Taylor I played took the cake. The 514 and 714 were a little more mellow due to the cedar top, but even there, they gave the others a run for their money.

 

If you're comparing a Martin dread to a Taylor grand concert (x12), then yeah the Martin would likely put out far more volume. It's a bigger body with a different shape. Compare that same Taylor x12 to a comperable Gibby or Martin and I dare say that the playing field would be far far more levelled out again and the competition would once again be pretty fierce.

 

All that rambling to say that after comparing comperable guitars (not a Taylor grand auditorium to a Martin dread or visa-versa), Taylors took the cake probably 80-90% of the time on those that I played.

[woody b]

A taylor is made in the USA a Takamine is made...wherever. If you really like the tuner built into the preamp on the Tak buy whatever kind of guitar you like the sound of and buy an intellitouch. I'm sure I'll get creamed for this but there are alot of musicians who PLAY Taylors. There area alot of singers who HOLD Takamines.

[guitarcapo]

I think all of the brands have good sounding guitars in there but I think Taylor has maybe a bit higher percentage of nice sounding ones in a given batch. It's kind of a random thing. All these name brand guitars are assembled in a factory. The thicknesses of the braces are standardized with no regard to the wood's individual characteristics. When all the pieces fall into place and the wood used has the right stiffness and density to match those tolerances...all the planets line up, and you get a good sounding guitar. It can happen within any of these brands. Some of these guitars also can "open up" in different ways and a guitar that was average sounding when new, all of a sudden explodes with sound six months after playing. Another guitar might sound great new, but never improves.

I once was visiting the Martin factory and was playing a bunch of guitars in their sitting room waiting for the tour to begin and wasn't impressed with any of them except one. This stupid Joan Baez model just totally floored me with the volume, power and tone. And this was a parlor "chick" guitar. The planets all lined up on that one.

Now an individual maker might get a higher percentage of hits in there because he's making each guitar individually and watching for these things but that's not to say some factory guitars may not surpass some of his bad ones. So it's really impossible to say one brand is categorically better than another, or even that hand-made guitars are better than factory guitars. Guitars are way to individual and complex.

[JasonA]

Well, the Martin dread thing was just a for instance. I'm not a dread guy either.

 

However, the Larrivee L body is nearly identical to the Taylor x14, and I've played a $700 L-03 blackwood that would blast away nearly every x14 I've tried.

 

And Taylor's grand concert is very comparable to an OM. It has a narrower waist, and a 0.25" smaller lower bout, but essentially an OM. But even going smaller, my Larrivee 00-09 is still considerably more powerful than any Taylor GC I've tried. There was a rumor going around on the Taylor forum that the GCs will be redesigned, and I hope that's the case.

 

But again, I didn't intend to bash taylors at all. I like them and have owned one. I actually like the Grand Concerts too. They have a nice tone. I was simply talking about volume and projection. I was only refuting the blanket statement by an enthusiastic fan...

[ryanspeer]

Originally posted by woody b A taylor is made in the USA a Takamine is made...wherever. If you really like the tuner built into the preamp on the Tak buy whatever kind of guitar you like the sound of and buy an intellitouch. I'm sure I'll get creamed for this but there are alot of musicians who PLAY Taylors. There area alot of singers who HOLD Takamines.

Well, Toby Keith sure as heck didn't become popular by his playing technique. All he does is stand there and strum the few times I've seen him play at awards shows. Then again, I'd have a hard time custom-painting a Taylor in a stars and stripes pattern, either... Essentially, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say THAT, but I see what you're saying.

[roadscholar]

 

Originally posted by woody b A taylor is made in the USA a Takamine is made...wherever. If you really like the tuner built into the preamp on the Tak buy whatever kind of guitar you like the sound of and buy an intellitouch. I'm sure I'll get creamed for this but there are alot of musicians who PLAY Taylors. There area alot of singers who HOLD Takamines.

 

 

 

True. There are also lot of professional musicians who play Takamines in front of an audience, and a lot of amateur musicians who play Taylors in front of their living room furniture.

[ryanspeer]

Originally posted by roadscholar True. There are also lot of professional musicians who play Takamines in front of an audience, and a lot of amateur musicians who play Taylors in front of their living room furniture.

Yeah? My living room coffee table doesn't throw rotten vegetables at me, so I'm counting my blessings. I have a captive audience that can't just get up and leave after guffawing at me, too! :D