Members LittleBrother Posted January 5, 2004 Members Share Posted January 5, 2004 Well I had an education. I visited Ralph Luttrell who is one of the better Dobro builders I have ever met. He studied under some of the greatest builders such as Scheerhorn and owns his own operation in Atlanta. He's a really nice guy and spent some time with me last night on Dobro construction good, bad and different. We first examined a commonly known brand mentioned here on the forums alot that was in for repair. First off he removed the cone and then placed it on a metal rod and held it up and tapped it with a metal object. It clanked like an old hubcap. Then he held up an IDENTICAL good cone from one of his Dobros which are hand spun Quarterman cone and tapped it. It rang like a bell and even sustained a little. I am talking night and day difference and they looked the same to the naked eye. Next he showed me where the cone housing area was basically the only real support in the guitar and how they had taken shortcuts in the design and internal bracing that saves money, wood and labor. He showed me how the cone area was already starting to become oval shaped instead of round which will eventually render the entire guitar trash , he said sooner than later. By the time he was done I realized exactly why buying a cheap Dobro was a total waste of money. One thing to beware of. People and players know very little about these instruments and there are no shortcuts when building one that will last and have great tone. Ralph showed me a handful of various ones he had in for repair that were ruined. It was interesting to see how some of them fail. All usually due to cheap construction. There is alot of cruddy brands making models that look great but wont last or sound good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SurrealMcCoy Posted January 5, 2004 Members Share Posted January 5, 2004 Interesting......so what would you recommend as far as a decent entry level instrument? How much do you need to spend? Thanks Doug...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scott Glover Posted January 5, 2004 Members Share Posted January 5, 2004 I'm thinking about getting a Gibson Jerry Douglas with a sheerhorn slide and all for about $2300.00 Jerry mostly plays his $5000.00 Sheerhorns though. If you check out his solo CD, Jerry breaks down which dobro he uses on each song and the Gibson sounds very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LittleBrother Posted January 5, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 5, 2004 Originally posted by SurrealMcCoy Interesting......so what would you recommend as far as a decent entry level instrument? How much do you need to spend? Thanks Doug...... Well, I am still learning but it seems that all the good ones use the same handspun Quarterman cones and they have extensive bracing inside to maintain the integrity. I am in touch with about 3-4 fine builders so far and to be honest some of the Crafters Of Tennessee resonators/dobros have been the lowest prices I have seen to get into a good one. Anything else seems like money out the window in the long term. Heres what I know so far. Brands like Dobro are bought out by larger companies now so anything but the higher end models in these lines may not be a good bet. I was horribly un impressed with the Gibson hound dog for example. I have seen some older early 1990s Dobros before they were bought out that were not too bad. I have also seen some new Nationals that were not bad. But in these instruments I believe I would feel better only buying the older models or having an expert help me when buying so I dont buy something I regret. As far as decent builders there seems no need to look beyond ones like Scheerhorn (elderly music has them), Mark Taylor and Crafters of Tennessee, Paul Beard, and also Ralph Luttrell is a smaller builder but in the same class, uses the same cones. As far as I know all of these cones come from the same place on the fine brands and if I am not mistaken that is Tut Taylors old machine they are all spun on. Tut is Mark Taylors father. Almost everyone that makes these instruments buys their parts in one form or another. I am still learning so this is up for discussion. I am not an expert by any means but I am talking to some of the best in the business and gathering many so called facts. This is just an example of a Crafters Of Tenn model on Ebay for 1200 dollars. In my opinion this is the range that you have to spend to start getting good ones. This one is not much more than a Gibson hounddog which is not even on the same planet in tone and quality. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2370943427&category=2385 I've seen brand new ones for this price range too. You just have to shop around a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 54merk Posted January 5, 2004 Members Share Posted January 5, 2004 LB, You' re talking about wood bodied resos, right? You sure right about the cones. A National or Quarterman cone only costs $50 and can really improve the sound, but if the whole thing is going to eventually self destruct, it's only temporary. Since all the entry level resos come from the same countries(Korea or China) and the same factories, they are probably all similarly constructed. Too bad if all the entry level models are junk. It's quite a jump in price to a National, Crafters of Tennesse, or the overpriced Gibson Dobros (with their inferior cones). Lots of new Crafters are sold on ebay for a fairly reasonable price for a quality reso. You can also find some used newer Nationals, and older vintage Nationals, however they command a hefty price if they are in perfect playing condition. There are also beat up Nationals out there too for those who are inclined to take their chances on a restoration project Plenty of used Gibson dobros are on ebay for a fraction of their new cost. The quality can be inconsistent, but they can be decent if not great instruments, once you replace the cone. Unfortuntately, Gibson dropped the bluesier biscuit bridge/9.5" cone models most of them have spider bridges. I bought a used brass bodied mid 90's Gibson biscuit style dobro a nearly a year ago on ebay it has opened up my eyes to a variety of styles using slide and open tunings, as well as improving my fingerstyle technique. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SurrealMcCoy Posted January 5, 2004 Members Share Posted January 5, 2004 Originally posted by LittleBrother Well, I am still learning but it seems that all the good ones use the same handspun Quarterman cones and they have extensive bracing inside to maintain the integrity. I am in touch with about 3-4 fine builders so far and to be honest some of the Crafters Of Tennessee resonators/dobros have been the lowest prices I have seen to get into a good one. Anything else seems like money out the window in the long term. Heres what I know so far. Brands like Dobro are bought out by larger companies now so anything but the higher end models in these lines may not be a good bet. I was horribly un impressed with the Gibson hound dog for example. I have seen some older early 1990s Dobros before they were bought out that were not too bad. I have also seen some new Nationals that were not bad. But in these instruments I believe I would feel better only buying the older models or having an expert help me when buying so I dont buy something I regret. As far as decent builders there seems no need to look beyond ones like Scheerhorn (elderly music has them), Mark Taylor and Crafters of Tennessee, Paul Beard, and also Ralph Luttrell is a smaller builder but in the same class, uses the same cones. As far as I know all of these cones come from the same place on the fine brands and if I am not mistaken that is Tut Taylors old machine they are all spun on. Tut is Mark Taylors father. Almost everyone that makes these instruments buys their parts in one form or another. I am still learning so this is up for discussion. I am not an expert by any means but I am talking to some of the best in the business and gathering many so called facts. This is just an example of a Crafters Of Tenn model on Ebay for 1200 dollars. In my opinion this is the range that you have to spend to start getting good ones. This one is not much more than a Gibson hounddog which is not even on the same planet in tone and quality. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2370943427&category=2385 I've seen brand new ones for this price range too. You just have to shop around a bit. Thanks LB for that very concise response. I tend to believe that we all too often become "blinded" by names. I once believed that any instrument that had Gibson on the headstock was to be worshipped. Although I'm fascinated by resonators......I've never played one. I would need to do alot of research before I would consider a purchase. More money !....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 54merk Posted January 5, 2004 Members Share Posted January 5, 2004 I think I can help with some of these questions. I do not pretend to be a world expert on resos and dobros but I have become obsessed with the history of these instruments for the past year. The cones are the heart of the instrument, along with the bridge/saddle. The best cones are spun on a lathe, while the cheap ones are punched. The metal must be thin and light as well. National has always been, and continues to be the gold standard, and Quaterman cones are copies, albeit very high quality which are nearly as good or as good, depending on who you ask. Either of these cones are excellent choices. The history of the resophonic guitars goes way back to their invention by the Dopyera brothers in the 20's and you can read all about it on the following sites: http://www.gibson.com/products/oai/dobro/story.html http://www.nationalguitars.com/history.html http://www.provide.net/~cfh/index.html Gibson's Dobro brand has always been, and continues to be known for their spider models. Although newer Gibsons tend to be heavily flamed in forums, IMO they are still decent instruments. As with Gibson acoustic guitars, their quality is not what it should be, they cost too much, and have horrible cones. I would never pay that kind of money for a new one, but there are loads of used ones out there. For the price of a new one you may as well buy a National, or a less costly Crafters of Tennesee. Crafters makes excellent resos and they are truly bargains. Below $1000 or so, however, the quality does drop off quite a bit, although some of the Korean models are fairly decent. The huge exception is the Hound Dog, Gibson's attempt to compete on price with the Asians, and it is truly the worst dobro I have ever attempted to play. I would buy a Chinese made Johnson, or even better, a Regal, before one of them! The National Resophonic Company was started in the 80's by former Dobro employee Don Young. Don was fed up with Gibson and their reluctance to change and improve their Dobro line. "Little" things like installing better cones, and making technological advancements to the construction of the bodies. The most important change which Gibson did was to drop many models including the bottleneck biscuit series. Don was able to acquire the rights to the long bankrupt National trademark and they started producing high quality instruments in California. There is a waiting list for their instruments, and they are not widely distributed, but if you get to play one, you immediately will be impressed by the quality, feel and their unbelievable sound. Although they are best known for metal bodies, they do manufacture excellent wood bodies models with either square or round necks. National are very nice folks and a pleasure to deal with should you ever contact them directly. Virtuoso Bob Brozman works closely with National and endorses their products. He also worked on the design of the Baritone National reso. Scheerhorn is considered the premier builder in the world, sort of like the Traugott of resos. His instruments cost $5000 and there is a waiting list. Hand made with solid woods. Jerry Douglas plays both a Scheerhorn and his Gibson Jerry Douglas model on his latest CD "Waiting for Hope". A great CD! Highly recommended. Like Bela Fleck and David Grisman, he has taken a bluegrass instrument into new territory. I cannot tell which instrument he is playing where, but I am guessing that he may be contractually required to use his signature model on his recordings. Just a guess, who knows, maybe not? Paul Beard is another fine builder, and there are plenty of others if you go searching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danocoustic Posted January 5, 2004 Members Share Posted January 5, 2004 My little Gibson/Dobro horror story: Bought a model33H (chrome-plated brass body with the way-cool palm trees) in '95 for $1225 from a local music store. The neck had an obvious bit of hump in it, but I thought,"No sweat, I'll just back off the truss rod when I get it home". 20/20 hindsight---have the shop set it up before you put your money down. But I knew the joker doing setup work for that store and didn't trust him. So I paid in full and away I went with my shiny new toy. Got home, got into the truss rod---already fully backed off. LOOSE, even. Back to the store we go. They ship it back to Gibson. Six weeks' wait. They renecked it; this neck had so much upbow, it was unplayable. I didn't even take it out of the store. Told them to send it back AGAIN and please strongly urge Gibson to stop jerking us around. Nine weeks' wait. Gibson sends a brand new 33H. This one has a halfway decent neck, but it also has so many weird buzzes and rattles and other weird noises that aren't supposed to be there. The store owner says, "They all sound that way". Yeah, right. Bull{censored} the fans, I play this game. Then he wants to start adding leather shims and patches to different places on the guitar to try to get rid of these freaky noises! Not a chance, Bubba. So I tell him to forget about it, I want my money back. "Oh, I can't do that, I already paid my salesman his commission".....like this is MY problem? Had to threaten a lawsuit and get rather belligerent, but I walked out with a check for $1225. Needless to say, that was my last purchase from that store, and it put me off Gibsons too. Now I've got a cheap Regal. I put a Quarterman cone in it and it sounds pretty good (see the other reso guitar thread). I'm sure all that Doug has said here about GOOD resos is absolutely true, but I'm happy with my cheapo. It's no Scheerhorn but it's good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scott Glover Posted January 6, 2004 Members Share Posted January 6, 2004 Danocoustic, I know what you mean about Gibsons quality control issues, but I did try a Jerry Douglas and the one I played was set up right and had no buzzes I could detect, but I do know what you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 54merk Posted January 6, 2004 Members Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by Danocoustic My little Gibson/Dobro horror story:So I tell him to forget about it, I want my money back. "Oh, I can't do that, I already paid my salesman his commission".....like this is MY problem? Had to threaten a lawsuit and get rather belligerent, but I walked out with a check for $1225.Needless to say, that was my last purchase from that store, and it put me off Gibsons too.Now I've got a cheap Regal. I put a Quarterman cone in it and it sounds pretty good (see the other reso guitar thread). I'm sure all that Doug has said here about GOOD resos is absolutely true, but I'm happy with my cheapo. It's no Scheerhorn but it's good enough for me. That's some horror story alright. Yup...good old Gibson, where quality really counts. How can a company just keep screwing up and sending merchandise back to you without even bothering to check it out? I've read plenty of stories like this one. Poorly built bodies, necks improperly attached. Loads of quality problems with the early Jerry Douglas model. The ones I've seen lately (other than the Hound Dog) played just fine, however, so maybe they've cleaned up their act. The setup on a reso is even more important than on an acoustic guitar. They are notorious for rattling and buzzing if they are not perfect, however with some patience and time, it is possible to get them to play correctly. Unfortunately most guitar techs know virtually nothing about how they work and are not qualified to properly set one up. Thankfully, there are forums and newsgroups on the web where you can get priceless advice from builders and enthusiasts. Furthermore, unlike a flatop, you only need a screwdriver to take one apart, so they are really easy to work on. I guess I've been lucky with my '95 Dobro since it has not given me any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LittleBrother Posted January 6, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 6, 2004 Great info and discussion. Thanks ... I just wanted to also clarify that Crafters Of Tennessee has nothing to do with the overseas "Crafters" brand of music instruments. Two totally different companys. It's easy to confuse the two. Also the Crafters of Tennessee models are not cheap models by any means. They are extremely low priced for what you are getting. I am not sure Tut and Mark Taylor really get the recognition of some . Thats another story. I have some video of Tut Taylor interviews where he goes into the detail on dobro history. I may have some of that footage online soon. I also like hearing about Scheerhorn from Ralph Luttrell since he is from that school of building. It was good to hear more about National too. I have seen a few of those on ebay I think. I also love the metal bodies but the prices are high on a good one that hasn't been banged up real bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 54merk Posted January 6, 2004 Members Share Posted January 6, 2004 Hey LB,The crystal ball shows a reso in your future. What a great way to pump some enthusiasm back into your music. With your fingerpicking prowess and knowledge of blues you'd be sliding like a pro in less than a month! Seriously. They are really not that hard to play. Maybe C of T can spare a loaner for you to try out. There are so many resos for sale on ebay, with some patience a decent buy will pop up occasionally. I got lucky on my '95 Dobro DM90 Duolian, no one else bid on it because it looked brown rather than chrome in the picture. I guess the finish can do funny things to a flash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LittleBrother Posted January 6, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by 54merk Hey LB, The crystal ball shows a reso in your future. What a great way to pump some enthusiasm back into your music. With your fingerpicking prowess and knowledge of blues you'd be sliding like a pro in less than a month! Seriously. They are really not that hard to play. Maybe C of T can spare a loaner for you to try out. There are so many resos for sale on ebay, with some patience a decent buy will pop up occasionally. I got lucky on my '95 Dobro DM90 Duolian, no one else bid on it because it looked brown rather than chrome in the picture. I guess the finish can do funny things to a flash. Hey Pal, Yeah I really want one and I have always had a feel for slide and loved them. I am probably going to have one of these builders make me one but I am not sure exactly what I want yet. I just toured Ralph's private wood collection yesterday and I saw some woods I would love to see a guitar made with. I also love Crafters instruments so I think I might get one in 2004. No huge hurry. I will also get a round neck but it needs to be loud so I can play with my friends and not get buried. I am in a big learning curve on these things. I also really like metal bodies so we'll see I guess. Thanks for the great posts LB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Charles French Posted January 6, 2004 Members Share Posted January 6, 2004 When I decided to buy a dobro or should I say (resophonic) I decided I'd get a cheap one to start with. Lucily for me the one I had decided on would take a couple of months to get. This gave me time to really dig for info. In talking with different ones especially music stores in my area, most recommended a roundneck. I didn't think a roundneck was the one for me personally, being mainly associated for blues playing. All the players I liked played squarenecks. Personally I think a SQN offers a lot of versitility. After much research I decided to buy a custom built guitar. I tell you there are many fine luthiers making these guitars. I had narrowed it down to two. I gave Todd Clinesmith a call and had to leave a message. Being the impatient one, I hung up and immediately called Paul Beard. A lady answered the phone and I told her I wanted to talk to someone about the Beards. So a guy comes on the phone and we had a long conservation about the guitars. I told him I would think about it and call him back within a day or so. Before I hung up I asked if I could get his name again. He said "Paul" duh, as in Paul Beard, yep. I called him back within the hour and he luckily had one he had just built Well I bought it, a "R" Model Mahogany. I don't regret one bit spending the bucks for this exceptional guitar. It's everything people say it is and more! Later I had the chance to play quite a few of the cheap models and daylight and dark difference dosen't began to describe the difference. One thing about buying one of these custom made guitars besides the fact that the tone is to die for, is they are an investment that will grow in value. If for any reason you should decide to sell, you can get very close to what you paid for it in the blink of an eye. I have never bought a guitar that didn't pay for itself a hundred fold. Greg McKenna makes a quality guitar at a very reasonable price. There's Dick Deneve, R.Q. Jones, Ivan Guernsey, Frank Harlow, Todd Clinsmith by the way called me back about a hour after I had bought my Beard and this guy is as nice a guy you'd ever want to meet. I would love to play one of his guitars. I think my next purchase will be a 8string reso for those greay C6 tunings. and a Fender double 8 steel, yeah thats what I really want. I wanna be like Tom Morrell (the greatest non-pedal player ever)when I learn to play! Heres a link to everthing you'll ever need to know bout these guitars. http://www.well.com/user/wellvis/steel.html good day, cf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Never_Grew_Up Posted January 8, 2004 Members Share Posted January 8, 2004 I also live in Atlanta, where is Ralph's place (or what's it called)?I have a resonator that could use a new cone and I'd like someone to look at it who can say more than "Hmm, I've never seen the INSIDE of one of these things before..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LittleBrother Posted January 8, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 8, 2004 Originally posted by Never_Grew_Up I also live in Atlanta, where is Ralph's place (or what's it called)?I have a resonator that could use a new cone and I'd like someone to look at it who can say more than "Hmm, I've never seen the INSIDE of one of these things before..." LoL, no problem man. He's a gem of a guy too. He's in Decatur right off Scott Blvd near 285 and Stone Mountain Freeway. I'll attach a link that you can click and see map. Ralph Luttrell Luttrell Guitars(404)325-7977 (tell him LB sent you) Martin Authorized Repair Station listing with Ralph and MapQuest =====================Charles, Yeah Paul is a really nice guy and you should see all the Beard Dobro pictures I took at the last NAMM. I will be seeing him next week and I will mention your story. Check out my NAMM photo gallery (look under B for Beard)http://littlebrother.nlpd.com/NAMM/nammsummersession2003nashville.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Charles French Posted January 9, 2004 Members Share Posted January 9, 2004 Boy those are some great photos. Paul luckily found me a guitar he had at Appalachian Bluegrass in Catonsville, MD. Emory Knode is the owner and a really nice guy himself. I haven't heard any custom made reso but my Beard. I can't imagine anything could sound any better. I luv it. cf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackwatch Posted January 9, 2004 Members Share Posted January 9, 2004 Again a great thread. I bought a cheap Regal and have been very happy with it although for $50 it sounds like it's worth upgrading the cone. I'm thinking of buying a Liberty next. I had a very nice talk with the builder and it sounded like a good guitar for the money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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