Larrivee frets

[dgpratt]

I have read a few posts about Larrivees having rough fret ends. My fairly new OMV-03R has the same problem and is at the luthier being staightened out now. From what I understand, this is due to low humidity problems. The prevalence of these problems makes me think maybe something else is going on - especially since nobody seems to be mentioning any other humidity related problems with their Larrivees. I can't help but wonder if maybe Larrivee did not allow the ebony fretboard material to season properly before using it on their guitars? If it was still drying out when constructed, it seems like that would cause these fret problems that seem so prevalent.

 

Maybe I'm thinking too much again...

[Howard Emerson]

Hi DG,

Where do you live, what's the temperature on average right now and what kind of humidifier are you using? Is your guitar out on a stand or in its case?

 

Hardly anyone will ever complain about low action, so when their guitar starts to dry out, they don't notice anything but that the guitar is so easy to play, if anything.

 

It's getting lower for a reason, though.

 

At some point, however, the fingerboard shrinkage gets to a point where the once-properly-filed-fret-ends are now sticking out past the fingerboard edge. Frets, of course, shrink at a much slower rate than wood....................

 

So then the blame usually get assigned to the manufacturer when it really should be squarely in the lap of the salesman who sold the guitar without explaining the real need for a humidification device, and/or in the lap of the buyer who didn't pay attention to what the salesman or the guitar owners booklet said about proper seasonal guitar care.

 

Of course I knew of many salesman who weren't qualified to sell guitars properly, so they never understood why the sound hole humidifier was trully necessary.

 

I lost track of how many 'smart shoppers' would not pay the extra 10-15$ for a soundhole humidifier. I would make note of that on their receipt, and when they came back to complain about a crack in the top or the fret ends protruding, I would point out how their frugality was coming back to haunt them.

 

They were then charged to send the guitar back to the manufacturer, who would, rightfully, charge to correct whatever damage occured.

 

Wood never stops shrinking and expanding. It is hygroscopic, and will continue to do this forever. In almost all cases, though, the wood was properly seasoned and dried at the manufacturers prior to building the instrument.

 

So they're built to a particular tolerance where it's based on an average of 45-47% relative humidity in the plant. From there they have a certain amount of 'room' for shrinkage and expansion.

 

It's not rocket science, but most US consumers want 'low maintenance', hence the dearth of vinyl siding here.

 

I hope none of this applies to you, and that your guitar is doing better soon.

 

Best regards,

Howard (got out of retail quickly) Emerson

http://www.howardemerson.com/ Come visit!!

[dgpratt]

My guitar arrived from the internet store that I bought it from with the rough fret ends and slightly lifted frets. Rather than return it, I took the time to make sure it is properly humidified and brought it to a luthier to clean it up. It is an otherwise excellent guitar.

 

My house has a whole house humidifier that keeps it at 40% RH, I keep my guitars in their cases, and I use soundhole humidifiers. The action is fine. The soundboard is not sinking. There are no gaps in any joints.

 

If you search the HC forum you will find many complaints about Larrivee fret problems. I have seen some in stores that have the same problem. When guitars from other quality manufacturers are sitting right next to the Larrivees and not showing any problems, I don't think it is unreasonable to question whether Larrivee did something wrong.

 

It is not a major issue and would not keep me from getting another Larrivee. I just think that a batch of not-quite-properly-seasoned ebony got through and is probably the root of the problem. Maybe not. Larrivees could just be suceptable to showing this humidity problem due to some design quirk. I understand Taylors buzz rather easily when humidity problems occur while the Martins next to them are fine.

 

Still love my Larrivee and won't part with it.

[Northern Rocker]

I have reported many times in the past poor quality observations in Larrivee guitars. Especially bad fretwork, but also splinterry bracing, glue beads and generally shoddy workmanship. Nobody ever took heed to what I said, mostly everybody praised Larrivee as building error free guitars. I searched out my first Larrivee to test about 10 years ago. Never found one to this day I liked.

 

best regards

[Howard Emerson]

[if you search the HC forum you will find many complaints about Larrivee fret problems. I have seen some in stores that have the same problem. When guitars from other quality manufacturers are sitting right next to the Larrivees and not showing any problems, I don't think it is unreasonable to question whether Larrivee did something wrong.

 

It is not a major issue and would not keep me from getting another Larrivee. I just think that a batch of not-quite-properly-seasoned ebony got through and is probably the root of the problem. Maybe not. Larrivees could just be suceptable to showing this humidity problem due to some design quirk. I understand Taylors buzz rather easily when humidity problems occur while the Martins next to them are fine.

 

Still love my Larrivee and won't part with it. ]

 

Hey DG,

You are the kind of consumer who makes the world a wonderful place, and I mean that with all sincerity. I might have stayed in retail a little longer if even 25% of my customers had been as realistic as you are!

 

It doesn't bode well for Larrivee that there are so many documented complaints about their fret work, and it's interesting to note that when I spoke to Doug Jones the other day (very basket-case, sleep-deprived sounding from NAMM overload, Little B:-) he went off on how good the Larrivee stuff was. Very enthusiastic indeed.

 

I would hope that Jean Larrivee is paying attention to complaints and comments that are being made. Unfortunately, if they don't get brought directly to his attention, he's very unlikely to be reading the forums and newsgroups and therefore wouldn't have a clue as to the publics experiences.

 

Thanks for clearing up the small stuff, DG.

 

Best regards,

Howard Emerson

http://www.howardemerson.com/ Come visit!!

[LittleBrother]

I have owned many Larrivees. I have to wonder if we are talking about the same brand but I know there are things out of control once they are shipped.

 

Mine have zero issues. I also know the #1 Larrivee dealer in the USA and he never has a return. Of course he stores them properly too. I know one X huge Larrivee dealer that is a huge chain that ruins them by the batch.

 

I would suggest in those cases contacting customer support since they are very responsive. Most Larrivees are built in perfect conditions for building guitars but this is a dry winter and it is 30% RH here now. I am using a humidifier.

 

I also just played about 20 Larrrivees at NAMM. Didn't notice any fret edges nor lifted frets. Perhaps these guitars are coming from a dealer with a dry environment. In either case the thing to do is care for the guitar properly and that wont happen.

 

Here are pictures of the frets on my Larrivees and they are utterly perfect in every regard. Just so people dont think I am making this stuff up

 

 

 

Here is an article on frets.com on frets. As you can see a guitar left in the heat can have the same issue. Also frets not lifted but just sharp are usually a sign of dryness.

 

See last image

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/Frets/frets02.html

 

Other things that happen to guitars not cared for are bridges lifting off and fretboards coming unbonded. If you ever see that it is from shipping guitars and leaving them in the heat.

 

Many mfg honor the repairs on these guitars even though it's not really their fault in most cases.

 

If I had any hint that Larrivee quality was not top shelf I would let it be known. The only people I have seen with problems usually are describing heat and dry damage to the letter. This will happen with any brand.

 

Sorry you had problems. Let Larrivee know about these things. At least they can see a pattern if certain guitars from certain dealers are always popping up with issues.

 

Meanwhile get your Larrivees from the same place I do and you wont have any problems. If you have any issues getting in touch with the right people at Larrivee let me know. They care.

[dgpratt]

I will e-mail Larrivee with what happened just so they know where I got it from (if it's a dealer problem) and serial number for when it was made (if it is a material or construction problem).

[JasonA]

I always scratch my head about comments like these. I have owned about 11 Larrivees and played lots of others. Not one had any fret issues to speak of as long as they were properly humidified. No glue blobs either. They seem to have as good or better quality control than most guitars I've tried.

[min7b5]

 

Originally posted by Northern Rocker I have reported many times in the past poor quality observations in Larrivee guitars. Especially bad fretwork, but also splinterry bracing, glue beads and generally shoddy workmanship....

 

I agree. I think they are great guitars, on the whole, but I've seen a lot issues like these too. Just in the last few weeks, one of my students showed me his OM10, I'm guessing this is a $2K (?). Now this is one sweet looking and sounding guitar, but the twelfth fret had the mother of all dead spots. It was so high on one side... it's very clear that the phone must have rang and who ever was working on this guitar never got back to the fret work before it went out, unchecked. At this price point this is just not acceptable. I have another student that got a steelstring from Costco for the holidays...I'm sorry, but much better fretwork.

[dgpratt]

I would certainly hope the 20 Larrivees LB played at NAMM had no problems with them! Who would bring poor examples with them to display?

 

As far as glue blobs, my OMV-03R has quite a messy glue job inside. Frankly, I couldn't care less about glue blobs inside my guitar. However, I can't agree with the implications that Larrivees are perfect when they leave the factory. They are a high volume producer now and things slip through - more likely on the lower end models like my 03 series. I still think they are excellent guitars for the money, but, around here anyway, if you find one in the local shops they are not always perfect - and I don't mean humidity issues alone. Like I said, mine has plenty of glue mess inside that can't be blamed on the dealer or user neglect. That being said - the same applies to Martin, Taylor, etc. You start getting into the boutique small batch guitar builders, then maybe I'll believe they are all perfect when leaving the shop....

 

Don't mean to sound like I am badmouthing Larrivee! I love Larrivees! I just don't subscribe to the "they can't do anything wrong cuz they're _____" attitude.

[LittleBrother]

I hear your points and I am not doubting or trying to disagree with other people's experiences. I trust you but I can assure you that the Jean Larrivee and his sons are constantly out on the floor with these instruments and not back in some office playing chess. They really care. They also want to hear these things and I am sure they would make them right. I guess I have been very lucky because my Larrivees have been as close to flawless as you can get and no globs anywhere inside. I inspect them closely. I have owned models from the VC and California facilities. Here is Brian's info. He has sent me a new case before and a new pickup and he seems to jump any hurdle to help a customer. He will even go out on the floor looking for help or even escalate issues to the old man himself. So don't hesitate calling them.

 

Brian Trepanier

Customer Service Representative

Larrivee Guitars Ltd.

604-253-7111

 

 

I also know Ricky Thompson (National Sales Mgr) who lives about an hour from me north of Atlanta. He's super responsive too. So just make sure you allow Larrivee to address any issues because they really seem to care and they are not shooting guitars out like chicklets either. They really care about the quality.

 

That's my impression and experience. I am sorry everyone has not had the same good experiences as I have. I have NOT had the same luck with all large mfg.

 

Good luck and I hope it all works out good

[dgpratt]

Thanks LB. Good to hear Larrivee works so hard at quality issues. I will forward my information to them for them to digest, but since I am already having a local guy fix it, I am not really looking for them to do anything for me. My local guy is fixing it for less than it would cost me to ship it back and forth to the dealer or Larrivee. As I said above, I didn't really think this was such a big deal.

 

My original question was about the ebony fretboard and whether poor seasoning may be the culprit. I was more expecting replies like "yes that happened on mine" or "no, mine's rosewood and it still happened because it's due to humidity you idiot."

 

Sounds like the experience has been that quality dealers that care for the instruments don't get these fret problems. That points rather definatively at humidity issues and overall care. It's too bad there is such a loss of control over the care of the guitars once leaving the factory.

 

Anyway, I can't wait to get mine back because it is otherwise an exceptional instrument that I miss already and it's only been gone a day...

[LittleBrother]

Hi dgpratt,

 

Sorry I danced all around the main question. Everyone made some excellent points that I agree with.

 

I listen to builders all the time complaining about the condition and moisture content of their guitars at the factory or shop .vs. the destination. I am sure different batches of fretboard wood can make a difference but I think what you are describing is something that all builders battle constantly. And to set the record straight about one brand on the rack vs another. Many of the factories mentioned all get wood from the same 1-2 sources.

 

I think one thing many of them do is stabilize the woods at 40% for example for a long period then build with it. So it is very reasonable to expect a guitar shipped and stored at 30% will exhibit at least some of these symptoms. it only takes a week or so of this dryness to cause it. Also heat is the even worse enemy.

 

From my experience (just mine) once the guitar starts getting sharp frets you are better off just smoothing those off and the problem will usually be permanently solved.

 

I agree with Howard in that you are a very nice customer and understanding these things will bring you many more friends and cooperation with the builders. I see the best builders in the world taking guitars back all of the time. Including small hand builders. I agree they are all human and we are dealing with wood and materials that change.

 

I think I have said enough. Thanks for reading my ranting. These are my opinions and I am subject to correction and learning. I am not trying to invalidate any of the negative experiences stated here. I am sure those people are sincere.

[daddyO]

My L-03R is almost perfect. The only flaw I can see is that the 17th fret position marker ( 1/16" stainless steel dots) has a corner dented. Frets are perfect as is the setup. I bought mine in Vancouver and live in a Vancouver suburb so the humidity is exactly the same as when it was made.

[stringbeanie]

I have had a Larrivee Parlor for 6 months (purchased new through mail order from FQMS). I am in Southern California where humidity is rarely an issue (attested by my hygrometer which rests nicely in the 40-50% range year round). I don't play the Larrivee much and it is always in the case when it isn't played. I recently had a friend play it and he noticed the VERY rough fret edges up and down the neck. I couldn't believe how bad they felt. I had never run my hand up the side of the frets before he pointed it out to me. You could almost cut yourself on the frets.

 

The Larrivee site states that you should address problems with the dealer which is a little hard for me given the couple thousand mile difference that separates us but I did send off an email to FQMS and have yet to hear from them.

 

Any ideas?

[LittleBrother]

I just got off the phone with Brian at Larrivee. He was very eager to help anyone with an issue and said these symptoms are common in instruments that have been hot or dry in shipment or storage and they would do the work and ship it back to you. So far they have never let me down. Ask for customer service and Brian usually answers. He can handle RMAs and in most cases your guitar goes back to California for rework. Jean and Matt run that one. It should come back like new.

 

Oh ! I also verified that Larrivee uses aged and stable wood at a tightly controlled 40% RH environment.

 

Let us know when you get them back and I hope this all has a happy ending.

 

Hey if you ever see that "Luthiers Video" from Rob at Paragon Guitar website. I think they show Brian in that movie. He's a good apple.

 

Doug/LB

 

P.S. Here's that info again.

Brian Trepanier

Customer Service Representative

Larrivee Guitars Ltd.

604-253-7111

[tikabear]

I had owned 2 Larrivees. My D-03 was a perfect guitar in my opinion and the workmanship was flawless. I traded that one for the one I currently own; a DV-03R and it is also a very high quality guitar. I store mine in it's case with a soundhole humidifier when not in use. I've never had any issues such as dead spots or rough fret edges.

[surfcat]

I've seen two examples-a D-03 and LV-03 I think, at a local store just a few feet from a humidifier and both had rough edges-no other guitars in the store that I tried-and I tried a few, had this problem. This leads me to believe that there is a problem. I don't know enough to say why only the Larrivees had the problem, but when I pointed it out to the salesman, he said something like-you don't run your hand up and down the neck when you play. The LV-03 was just what I was looking for and at a good price, but I passed because of it-I didn't know how much was involved with fixing it and he seemed to have no intentions of helping me remedy the problem. Maybe these regional sales managers need to go to the stores that sell them and check the actual store stock for problems and figure out what needs to be done. I have to think somewhere along the line, there is a problem that affects Larrivees more than other brands-I've done a lot of acoustic shopping over the last few months and Larrivee's the only brand I've seen with this problem. I don't doubt that Little Brother's had good luck with them but with the number of complaints, something is amiss.

[LittleBrother]

 

Originally posted by surfcat I've seen two examples-a D-03 and LV-03 I think, at a local store just a few feet from a humidifier and both had rough edges-no other guitars in the store that I tried-and I tried a few, had this problem. This leads me to believe that there is a problem. I don't know enough to say why only the Larrivees had the problem, but when I pointed it out to the salesman, he said something like-you don't run your hand up and down the neck when you play. The LV-03 was just what I was looking for and at a good price, but I passed because of it-I didn't know how much was involved with fixing it and he seemed to have no intentions of helping me remedy the problem. Maybe these regional sales managers need to go to the stores that sell them and check the actual store stock for problems and figure out what needs to be done. I have to think somewhere along the line, there is a problem that affects Larrivees more than other brands-I've done a lot of acoustic shopping over the last few months and Larrivee's the only brand I've seen with this problem. I don't doubt that Little Brother's had good luck with them but with the number of complaints, something is amiss.

 

 

Well I respect your opinion and completely believe your experience but these folks build in the same area, same 40% standards and the same woods. I can't see where Larrivee is the problem in that regard. I hope yours was an isolated case or the ones in your area are not the norm.

 

I think sometimes not enough responsibility is placed on the distributors, dealers and customers and it's just a good thing Larrivee stands behind the product and eats these costs regardless. Always allow them to respond to these issues if possible.

 

Here's a picture of Richard Hoover of SCGC and Jean Larrivee at NAMM. They go on wood buying adventures together. You probably know Jean is quite a wood expert.

 

I would report dealers like the one you mentioned to Larrivee since customer feedback can be valuable.

 

http://littlebrother.nlpd.com/richardjean.jpg

[labjr]

I don't see how there could be a design quirk putting frets in a fretboard.

 

Apparently the fretboard shrunk or the frets were not dressed properly. Either way it's no big deal. Easy to fix.

 

I've looked at a few Larivees. I wasn't blown away by the workmanship, The necks weren't as comfortable as I'd like. But I like the company.

 

The only place I saw them was at Guitar Center. They weren't presented very well there.

[Gearfreak]

I have a Larrivee D-O3R and have not had any problems with my guitar as far as quality and construction issues. My brother also has a Larrivee D-O3R that has the top raising up / bowing upward which has caused him to lower the saddle down to the point that he no longer has anymore to take off and the action is buzzing again (this is over 2 years). We both got them from the same dealer, but he got his 6 months before me. Both houses are keep at 50 to 60% RH, so why did he have problems and I have not had any? I really do not know the answer that is why I asked, all things are the same except he bought his 6 months earlier than me.

 

Gearfeak

[LittleBrother]

Hey man a top raising is not usually due to dryness. I bet that guitar is a valid candidate for some service or a neck reset. This happens with any brand including the finest made so it is nothing to panic over but I would call Larrivee support on that. Sounds like the top is starting to get a belly and the neck angle is not enough to allow for this. They can fix that. I would not just let it go. Call Larrivee man...