Is This an Intonatino Problem?

[Teletwister]

I recently have gotton back into learning the guitar and notice a few strange things with my guitar, which I've had for about 8 years. It is a Washburn D-11, a pretty cheap guitar.

 

The thing I notice on it is the high E string in general always sounds pretty shrill, like it is almost on the edge of fret buzz. The real problem with it, though is at the 12th fret. It is like it almost won't make any noise. I did notice that if I push the string inward toward the B string a little bit it will sound out just fine. The low E string has a little bit of this problem at the 12 fret too, but no where near as bad.

 

Is this an intonation problem? What do I need to do to fix this? I did check and this guitar does appear to have a truss rod that is accessable through the sound hole. The neck does look really straight by the way. I don't think there is really any bow to it. Could that be the problem?

[slider]

I dont think it is an intonation problem. intonation defined is the notes played at the lower frets are not in the same tuning on the higher frets. ( low A fine, but at the 12th fret is either sharp or flat).

I have a feeling the problem is at your bridge. maybe it is old and worn.
maybe the bridge has lifted or the face of the guitar is bowed near or behind the bridge.

anyone else?

[Teletwister]

That could be...I know my bridge has some grooves in it from the strings. Maybe my high e string has slid a little bit closer to the edge of the fretboard causing this issue? If I'm not careful, the string often "falls" off the fretboard when I'm doing pull offs on it.

Are these type of repairs expensive? I don't want to throw too much money into it considering I didn't pay that much for it.

[JasmineTea]

How's the action? If the neck is realy straight, I'm thinking loosen the truss 1/4 turn (or less) to add a little bow and bring the strings up a tad.

• ..sounds like it's fretting-out.

[Teletwister]

The action is probably considered fairly high judging from some strats and teles I've played at guitar stores.

If I'm looking at it right (sighting down the neck from the top by the tuners or from the body of the guitar) it looks flat as a board.

I don't mind if the strings get a little bit higher. I'll probably convert this into a slide guitar when I get my next guitar. It buzzes a little when I use a slide but I was surprised it didn't sound worse.

[JasmineTea]

Pick it up and look doun it as though you were aiming a rifle, headstock away from you. Aim it at the window or some source of light so that the light reflects off of the SIDE of the frettboard, where the dot-markers are. Flip it and look doun the other side, if one side is more curved than the other, it's twisted (not always a bad thing). It should (imo) bow out a little starting at the 5th-7th frett.

• ..that's how I do it..

[Teletwister]

Thanks for the info JasmineTea. I'll check it a little closer tonight.

[54merk]

It's impossible for anyone to guess at the cause of the problem so you need to check every possible cause. Start with this link from Frets.com.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/BuzzDiagnosis/buzzlist.html


There is a lot more useful information on that site which can be accessed from the Index page. Scroll down to get a list of topics. I keep this one in my favorites.


http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/pagelist.html

[Teletwister]

Ok, after checking things out closer and going through troubleshooting at the website 54merck recommended (thanks) it is obvious that when I play the high E string at the 12th fret the string is hitting some of the frets higher up. I assume this is what is meant as "fretting out" (hey, I'm new to this...) right?

The high E string is noticably lower than the rest of the strings. After looking at the Low Saddle section of that frets.com website it seems that that particular string doesn't have enough downward pressure. Just looking at it compared to the rest of the strings at the saddle, it is much "flatter" going from the saddle into the bridge. The website recommends making string ramps with a dremel tool. I guess this makes sense. Couldn't I just get a little higher saddle put in, or would that throw everything else off?

Man I feel like I'm learning alot. Thanks for the help so far:)

[JasmineTea]

Try the higher saddle, you can shape it yourself. ..um..Stewart MacDonald.com(?) or try stewmac.com, either way there are parts supplyers out there, or mabey your local has saddle-blanks.

[54merk]

Originally posted by Teletwister Ok, after checking things out closer and going through troubleshooting at the website 54merck recommended (thanks) it is obvious that when I play the high E string at the 12th fret the string is hitting some of the frets higher up. I assume this is what is meant as "fretting out" (hey, I'm new to this...) right? The high E string is noticably lower than the rest of the strings. After looking at the Low Saddle section of that frets.com website it seems that that particular string doesn't have enough downward pressure. Just looking at it compared to the rest of the strings at the saddle, it is much "flatter" going from the saddle into the bridge. The website recommends making string ramps with a dremel tool. I guess this makes sense. Couldn't I just get a little higher saddle put in, or would that throw everything else off? Man I feel like I'm learning alot. Thanks for the help so far:)

You have some more reading to do on Frets.com. What you are describing is break angle over the saddle. Usually this results when the saddle has been taken too far down. The reason for sanding the bottom of the saddle down in the first place is to lower the strings, which is called lowering the action. If the action is too low, the strings will not clear the frets. Now go back to frets.com and read about setups and how to measure the action. If the action is too low, you can replace the saddle. Frets.com will show you how to do this, it's quite simple. Buy bone blanks in the correct thickness, and you will need to cut it to size and sand it to the correct height. These are cheap so buy a few because you'll probably mess the first one up. None of this is rocket science, anyone can do it, so don't be timid.

[JasmineTea]

Originally posted by 54merk You have some more reading to do on Frets.com. What you are describing is break angle over the saddle. Usually this results when the saddle has been taken too far down. The reason for sanding the bottom of the saddle down in the first place is to lower the strings, which is called lowering the action. If the action is too low, the strings will not clear the frets. Now go back to frets.com and read about setups and how to measure the action. If the action is too low, you can replace the saddle. Frets.com will show you how to do this, it's quite simple. Buy bone blanks in the correct thickness, and you will need to cut it to size and sand it to the correct height. These are cheap so buy a few because you'll probably mess the first one up. None of this is rocket science, anyone can do it, so don't be timid.

I think we should all have a link to "fretts.com" in our sig.

[Teletwister]

Alright, I'm going to dig a little deeper at Frets.com, call around for the bone blank saddles and probably get a book on guitar setup/repair. Any good recommendations.

I'd probably be a little more nervous if this was a more expensive guitar. Although it is special b/c it is my first (and currently only) guitar.

Cool, I'm gonna work on my guitar!
I guess it doesn't take much to get me excited.

[greystoke 2]

Is the neck joining body at 12th fret? If so, symptoms described are fairly
common because of fretboard not being attached to neck anymore and subject to 'bellying'[slight raising or sinking] of top which has a couple of causes-worst probably being neck joint issues. Simple way of checking fret issues as well as relief is to find a good metal straight edge and place it edge flat on areas of concern on fretboard and observe hi-lo issues with a backlight.
Greystoke