Planning on swirling my guitar, but I have a few questions that seem unanswered!

[Paulplaysguitar]

Hey guys, I own 2 guitars - a nice one, and a not so nice one. It's an old epiphone sg with a bolt on neck. It's all mahogany, and translucent red. I'm planning on stripping the coating off, priming it with a few coats of white spray paint primer, then swirl finishing it with blue, white and grey. However..

 

1. Do I just sand the old finish off? I am assuming the wood has been stained, then a clear topcoat applied. By sanding off this topcoat, will I be left with a bare red piece of mahogany?

 

2. How do I protect the inner cavities from water damage? I can easily plug the screw holes with wax or blue tack, and other areas with a few layers of masking tape. Do I apply the primer to all areas to be covered, including inside the guitar?

 

3. I'm planning on using Humbrol gloss colours. After I've swirled, do I need to apply a top coat? If so, which one, and how?

 

I'm really sorry if these are super noob questions, but I don't want to ruin this guitar (even though it's only a spare I never play at the moment). I'm planning on making it look mad, sticking new pickups in (some nice new duncans) and upgrading all hardware. As it's a bolt on, I may even replace the neck with a nice new one. Basically, I want a very personal guitar that has been cheap, and will play well. No promises on how it will sound, and whether it will have any sustain at all, but it'll be a fun summer project!

 

Many thanks guys,

 

Paul

[WRGKMC]

 

1. Do I just sand the old finish off? I am assuming the wood has been stained, then a clear topcoat applied. By sanding off this topcoat, will I be left with a bare red piece of mahogany? 2. How do I protect the inner cavities from water damage? I can easily plug the screw holes with wax or blue tack, and other areas with a few layers of masking tape. Do I apply the primer to all areas to be covered, including inside the guitar? 3. I'm planning on using Humbrol gloss colours. After I've swirled, do I need to apply a top coat? If so, which one, and how?

 

 

1. If its poly, it has to be sanded and its a ball buster job because poly is a bitch to get off. its a very hard plastic finish.

you can use a heat gun but take a chance on scorching the wood requiring sanding anyway. i recomend a sander and plenty of

sandpaper which will clog quickly. Its a messy dusty job. You start with course paper and work down to super fine grit for a baby

assed smooth bare wood. if you leave scratch marks, painting over the marks will be seen. Refinishing is all about prep work.

 

If its laquer you can use paint remover and it comes right off. Paint remover wont work on a plastic finish. it just sits there and does nothing.

 

2. Water damage??? You dont use water based products on guitars. You use either alcohol, oil or poly based finishes.

You should not use water based paints. The sweat from your hands will cause it to break down rub off and look like a mess.

 

3. Humbrol sells Enamil and Acrylics. Both are the worst choices for an instrument.

Enamil takes up to a year to dry completely. It develops a skin and that skin will move and marr up when the guitars

places on a hanger or a stand. it also has a chemical reaction with rubber cables. I had one body I had painted with enamil.

a year later when it was set in a guitar stand it left grooves in the paint. 10 years later I had a guitar cord draped

over the body and the cord stuck to the paint. Enamil is for metal or applications that dont involve handeling touching it much.

 

Water based acrylics also have a long list or horror stories that get posted here. most of them are caused by individuals who

dont know you have to use matching clear coats or you wind up having chemical rejections.

 

The basics are, if you use alcohol laquer paint, you use laquer clear coats.

If you use poly paint, you use poly clear coat.

If you use oil paint you use oil clear coating.

 

If you start with one base chemical, you stay with that chemical weather it be

alcohol, oil or poly from beginning to end.

 

You really need to do some reading on what you plan on doing before you even begin to think about it or you'll

wind up with a piece of junk you wind up trying to sell on ebay noone wants. Even if the guitar isnt worth much,

you can cut that in half even if the refinish is decent. Noone wanst someone elses botched abortion so you're

throwing money out the window the second you touch it with sandpaper.

 

If you want to learn how to paint and finish, start on a piece of wood before you screw with a guitar body.

If you pass that step, then you have a chance of doing something decent on a guitar.

 

It usually takes about a dozen refinishes before you start to begin doing good work and thats for a plain

painted finish. Fancy swirls etc, will undoubtably get botchd right out of the box.

A sworl beans you're working with a liquid base coat that is fairly thick in order to get it to swirl.

That means you'll have all kinds of ripples and dripping going on. With a thick mass of paint, its going to

take forever to dry, and may never dry if you clear coat it too soon.

 

You'd be better off air brushing something on or doing hand arwork with oils and a brush.

Stay away from more complex paint jobs till you have some experience.

Refinishing is not kindergarden art class. It requires allot of hard work and developing skill

to do it right. I been refinishing and painting guitars since the earley 70's and i still dread

doing the work. It seems every time I get close to a perfect job something happens.

it may be a bug landing on the clear coat, a piece of dust, a small drip, something that

happens that makes it look less than perfect.

 

If you have the money, I'd just take it to an auto body shop and have them do it for you.

they have the sprayers, the clean room, and experience to do the job right. If you go at it with

rattle cans, you get what you get. Something that looks like it was sprayed from cans.

 

 

Laquer is recomended for guitars because botches can be fixed and repaired.

New coats of laquer melt into the old layers, and you can buff flaws out to a mirror finish.

 

Semi transparent laquers and paints are also used with laquers. Something like a sundburat or a

tinted red like you mentiones, doesnt involve staining. You dont stain a body then try to laquer over it.

Laquer wont adhere to oil stains properly. What they do is pit pigment in the clear laquer to make it semi transparent.

if you put allot of pigment in it, then you have solid paint.

 

My suggestion is, if you were building a guitar from scratch, use a natural oil finish as a beginner.

Its easy to apply and looks great. Then mover up to laquer paints and clear coats from rattle cans.

Then you can move up to buying a sprayer and learn how to add dryers and thin your chemicals as

you add more and more layers for the pro look.

 

Polys are a tough coat and also require buying specific viscosities so it can be sprayed.

You need good ventallation with all and you need the proper chemicals to clean everything up.

Spray painting is a nasty stickey job not to be taken litely. If you're going to do it, do it right.

 

 

Its not cheap either. A typical guitar when you add up the sand paper and cans of paint,

you're looking at at least $50 for a plain paint and clear coat job. You're talking about new pickups

hardware, paint job? Your putting lipstick on a pig in my book. Its not going to make the instrument

play better. If its got a crappy neck and tone, painting it syrely isnt going to make it more appealing to play.

 

My advice is sell it and buy something you will play. Then if you want to put some money into it,

it would be a worthwhile investment. Turing a cheap guitar into a clown prop wont make it more

appealing to anyone but a clown in a circus.

[Paulplaysguitar]

Thanks for the response. I really love the neck on the guitar - okay, it's a bolt on, but it's really nicely worn in and the edges have been rolled by years of abuse. It's tone doesn't exactly suck either - definitely not a bad guitar, to say the least. The customisation is more for a fun project over the summer - as a cheap epiphone, it has no resale value in the UK anyway - I'd be lucky to get 50 quid for it, dinks and all. I also have an unexplainable personal attachment to it, being my first guitar. The method I was going to use is shown in this video:

 

 

 

Hence the question about water damage. It seems to be a fairly successful technique, and have found a lot of websites and forums dedicated to it, as well as swathes of images of guitars customised in this way. Unfortunately, they don't go into any detail about how to protect the enamel finish, nor how to prime the guitar - I understand the limitations of the enamel finish, and I'm assuming a clear topcoat is applied which will harden and protect it.

 

However, you have answered another question of mine - I'd like to build my own guitar and was going to ask whether rubbing oil in is easiest. I'm glad it is, because it looks awesome!

 

Perhaps this is not a good method to use after all.

[Bryan316]

There are MANY Youtube videos of the guitar swirl finish procedure. Research like crazy.

 

As for the cavities holes and voids in the body of the guitar: Hot glue. Blob the screw holes. Cut sections of aluminum foil and hot glue them in the pickup cavities. Remember that when you float the oil-based paints, they ARE the barrier between your guitar and the water. If you do your floating layer correctly, your guitar body will never see a drop of water.

[Paulplaysguitar]

Yeah, it was finding one of those videos that really inspired me. But none of them that I'd found covered the whole procedure. I think I've worked it all out though. Nice idea with the glue and foil though. Someone else emailed me suggesting I stick blue tack into each of the screw holes, and leave the metal bits in (wow I'm technical). I think I prefer the idea of gluing though.

 

I'll be posting the results of this mad excursion within the next few weeks, so expect a bump. Here is to hoping it's a success! I'll be practising first though...

[WRGKMC]

 

Thanks for the response. I really love the neck on the guitar - okay, it's a bolt on, but it's really nicely worn in and the edges have been rolled by years of abuse. It's tone doesn't exactly suck either - definitely not a bad guitar, to say the least. The customisation is more for a fun project over the summer - as a cheap epiphone, it has no resale value in the UK anyway - I'd be lucky to get 50 quid for it, dinks and all. I also have an unexplainable personal attachment to it, being my first guitar. The method I was going to use is shown in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cY4LXZqX-w Hence the question about water damage. It seems to be a fairly successful technique, and have found a lot of websites and forums dedicated to it, as well as swathes of images of guitars customised in this way. Unfortunately, they don't go into any detail about how to protect the enamel finish, nor how to prime the guitar - I understand the limitations of the enamel finish, and I'm assuming a clear topcoat is applied which will harden and protect it. However, you have answered another question of mine - I'd like to build my own guitar and was going to ask whether rubbing oil in is easiest. I'm glad it is, because it looks awesome! Perhaps this is not a good method to use after all.

 

 

Two items. Water doesnt hurt the wood and if you use a sealer, it isnt going to do jack.

The cavity wont be stripped so no problem with moisture, and screw holes dont matter at all.

I've restored guitars (and amps) that were under water for a week in floods here and it

had little effect on the wood once it dried.

 

Second you missed my point about enamils, or just didnt connect.

They are designed for wood and you cant clear coat them.

Oil paints like enamils are very, very slow drying. Thyey dry from the outside in.

it first develops a skin and feels like its dry but it can take many "MONTHS" for

the lower layers near the body to harden.

 

If you clear coat over the enamil, you trap the vapors inside the layers near the body, and

the paint will never harden. As I mentioned, I had a guitar cord draped over a guitar spray painted

with enamil then a clear coat over it. "10 years later" that paint still hasnt fully cured.

Oil paints will also lift up in direct sunlight. The heat reliquifies the paint and it will ripple and sag.

 

Take my word for this. I have a lifetime of experience in finishes as did my parents and their parents

who all did Antique restorations all their lives. My father even owned a paint shop for 20 years and worked

for glidden for 10 years. I had no choice in learning about this stuff because I was exposed to it all my life.

Its probibly why I hate working with refinishing so much. When I do it I dont want to have to redo it.

A botched job means you threw your money and time out the window. Still you got to learn the hard way some times.

 

Enamil oil paint is for metal, period. If you want to experiment with it be my guest. They do make some water based

latex enamils designed for doors to resist finger prints. Problem with that stuff is nothing will stick to it after its applied.

Its your instrument, you can do what you want. I suggest you read the cans labels AND FOLLOW THEM SPECIFICALLY.

Pay attention to humidity conditions, dry times and use only the clear coats they recomend.

Manufactures are into this new thing where they have special chemical combinations. They require you to use their

base coat and clear coat together. If you try and use their base coat and some other manufacturers clear coat,

the chemicals are designed to reject other manufacturers chemicals. you wind up having to spend twice as much having to do the job

over with their product only. I've seen this happening more an more in the past 20 years. if you stick with their product only it does well,

but its usually a major dollar ripoff. You can do the same job or better with your standard products and using common sense.

 

Thats the best advice I can give to a beginner.

I do suggest you google up some sites like this http://www.reranch.com/ and educate yourself before you begin

then price up what its going to cost you (including the botched job if the first attempt is a fail ;like they usually are.

I'd also read up on the history of guitar finishes and find out why traditional chemicals are best.

http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html

 

By the way, you can restore that Epi finish if its laquer to look new again. You can buy laquer sticks in different colors

and fix any dings and scratches, then overspray the old finish with fresh laquer without having to strip it.

Just something to keep in mind. Laquer melts into the old coats and can be buffed up to a new shine.

thats why its the prefered finish on all your expensive guitars.

[Paulplaysguitar]

Okay, many mixed responses from you guys on here, and various techs I've written to. Everyone recommends a different paint/enamel, water mixture, clear coat etc. However, one piece of advice remains - use an oil based enamel, and give it a few months to dry. I think I'm going to put this on hold until I've got hold of a piece of scrap mahogany, primed it and experimented with it a few times, including giving it a clear coat. Some have said clear coating is fine if done properly, others say it dissolves everything. They all also mention how manufacturers are into making their own chemicals work ONLY with their own. Cheeky gits - reminds me of working in a darkroom all over again...

 

I'll have some experiments, and if it fails horrifically, then I've saved a guitar body. If anyone can think of an alternative method for making a swirl finish, I'd be more than happy to listen! I'm not interested in restoring it - this thing has already been modified to hell, and previously has had a roland synth pickup in it. I also managed to install a fuzz pedal in it, but we won't go into that for now. My priority is to find a way of repainting it in a unique way that will make it 'mine'.

 

Does anyone know how actual guitar companies do it? Each swirl guitar comes out completely unique, which means it's not a computer spraying them...

 

Thanks guys!

[WRGKMC]

http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/tutorial5.htm

[Bryan316]

Another thing to consider is your actual dunking technique. If you notice, your lateral movements across the surface of the water creates much of the swirling effect. It's not just the pattern you create on the water surface. Now, you can either plan to ONLY use the surface's pattern as your pattern, or you can practice your movement for your results.

 

I would recommend LOTS of practice. You can either chop up a couple 2x12's into guitar body shapes, or you can go find an el cheapo pawn shop guitar for $50-100 and dunk it over and over until you get it right. You can set up your dunk tank, and have a paint thinner tray ready to wash off the paint. Dunk, swirl, examine. Take photos and write down notes of what you like/hate after each practice dunk. Then put the test body into the paint thinner pan and wash it down. Take your pics, dry it off, and do another dunk. If you get everything prepped properly and maybe have someone to help, I bet you could get three or four full practice dunks in one afternoon.

 

The most important advice I could ever give you, is make sure you've covered all of your preparations. The more practice and prep work you do, the better your results. For example, I'm helping my friend build a computer corner desk. He hates sawdust construction, and didn't want any stupid boxed-up pre-fabbed desks. So we used framing grade lumber and some Ikea unfinished table tops. We spent weeks prepping and sanding and routing and drilling and resanding and staining and re-resanding and restaining.... and we're looking gooooood. Last night we put the second coat of polyurethane on the legs and framework, and the first coat on the desktop. He's still amazed that construction lumber could look so good! He picked the right stains to make the pine's grain POP. It simply attests to the benefits of prep work and testing and practicing. I almost made him an expert at applying poly without leaving brush strokes.

 

Yes, of course, pics will be shared once we're done.

[Paulplaysguitar]

Yeah, with guitar finishes, everyone agrees that the preperation of the body is the single most important step so I'll spend a lot of time removing the finish and getting rid of the dings etc. Luckily, I have a local timber shop and I reckon I can get plenty of scrap to practise on. Luckily, as I'm in the UK, I can buy magic marble paints, so I am hoping this will make things a little easier. My guitar won't be touched until I've worked out how best to finish and clearcoat though. I'll post results from the scrap, and ask advice depending on how it goes!

[WRGKMC]

If enamil is fully dry, laquer is the only thing that will stick to oil paints.

Poly or acrylics will peel right off like sunburn skin in sheets.

[Bryan316]

Nitro?

[WRGKMC]

 

Nitro?

 

Nitro is one type of laquer. It has additional polymers to make it harder.

It will stick as well as any other laquer on oils. just keep in mind like I said,

it takes "months" for oild to fully cure. If you seal it too soon, you trap in liquid oil paints

and that oil pain will move. Set the guitar in a stand, leave it in a case and it will

leave marks.

[Bryan316]

And people wonder why I prefer natural wood grain instruments. Because it's EASIER!!! Especially with hand rubbing tung oil. You can't duplicate that look, OR that feel.

 

(says the guy about to attempt a digital camo paint job on one of his basses)

[Paulplaysguitar]

Yeah, I'm planning a guitar build next year for an 8 string, and I'll oil that (planning on making it out of walnut, so it'll look a bit posh). But this is just a fun 'art' project essentially. I've started sanding and it has amazed me how thick the finish is. It's coming off though, which is good. Next step after this (which will take a couple of weeks) will be to make sure it's completely flat, with no dinks or valleys.

 

I've found alternative paints, called magic marble paints, which only seem to be available in the UK (lucky me). They are designed specifically for this work, requiring no thinner and as you say, they dry TO THE TOUCH within an hour or so. But below it is not going to be dry. I'll give it a couple of months before I even think of applying nitro. To make sure I don't rush it, I have not bought the paints yet, only primer. And I won't order the nitro until a couple of months of drying. Also, I wrote to the store that sells them, and they said that they are pretty good with nitro finishes, so long as the first 3-4 coats are a 'dusting' which will dry within minutes. As you said, the solvent may react with the paint, so it is important to dust it on for a few coats before I even think of getting a 'proper' layer on. Again, I'll be using lots of testing blocks, and will post results to help anyone else who uses the same paints/nitro.

 

Is there a way to post pictures on this forum? I'm new here... But I'd like to show you guys the results in a few months when it's finished! Not to mention the various testing blocks I'll be ruining