Members UstadKhanAli Posted March 21, 2006 Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by kes yeah, i've read a lot about the FMR stuff. i thought i might splurge (or what i would consider splurging) on a Portico Dual Pre for the guitars. it's just that i'll have so many mics from the drumkits, etc. that i don't think i'll be able to afford enough decent pres. has anyone had luck recording their drums direct and then reamping them or using software preamps on them??? as for the record company experience, no such (bad) luck yet I mentioned the FMR RNP because I like it so much. I have three of them (six channels). Beautiful sounding, and at slightly less than $250/channel, a real bargain for how amazing they are. And as you may know, I also have a Portico Dual Mic pre (5012, I think). Yeah, they're great on guitars, but seriously, they're great on everything else I've thrown 'em at (not literally, 'cuz, y'know, you could, like, really hurt someone that way... ). Acoustic guitars, vocals, electric guitars, and bass - all amazing so far. As far as record companies, get a trustworthy lawyer (assuming this is not an oxymoron ) and go over contracts very carefully and while that's no guarantee that you'll be fine, it's a whole lot better than NOT doing it!! How 'bout that? I've managed to lambast lawyers and record company execs in the same sentence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted March 21, 2006 Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by kes has anyone had luck recording their drums direct and then reamping them or using software preamps on them??? I almost didn't catch this....sorry, but this is a headscratcher to me. Can you elaborate? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kes Posted March 21, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by UstadKhanAli I almost didn't catch this....sorry, but this is a headscratcher to me. Can you elaborate? Thanks! i guess what i'm thinking is, because i won't have the $ needed to have many decent pres, i could send the mics to a DI straight into the DAW, and then send/return them one track at a time to a preamp. does that make sense? i apologize in advance if the question is stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted March 21, 2006 Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 You usually need a mic preamp to amplify the ridiculously low output that a mic typically has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EngineGuitarist Posted March 21, 2006 Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 if you don't have money to spend on pre's what are you going to use? there's no point to 32 inputs imo if you dont/won't have the ability to use them all, nevermind if you need to. I understand you want expandability, but getting 16 ins and 16 outs or subbing in a rosetta 800 for the Da16 and having 24 ins and 8 outs (depending on your needs) would make alot more sense cuz you could afford some nice pre's. but you'd still need a mixer. for the price of a AD16 you could get 5 or 6 channels of API pres, those and the dual portico would be enough for now combined with sometype of console for scratch tracks. you could get a bunch of cheaper pre's like the 4 ch. sytek for $800 (i think thats how much they are). what exactly is your plan. what kind of music are you going to be doing mostly? is it for yourself? what kind might you do occasionally that could need more gear? if you had a setup what would be the order you'd record the instruments and how many mics are you planning to put on each? what will be overdubbed or replaced? i think converters are important but using apogee converters with something like a mackie board (which you'll probbaly completely replace whatever you record through it) seems like a waste to me. but thats me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brittanylips Posted March 21, 2006 Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 I think the difference between different DAWs sound quality used to be more of an issue than it is now. With higher resolution and more sophisticated summing, the software is no longer the weak link in fidelity. So... get the one that feels the best, they'll all sound fine. the interface is where the sound will live or die. fwiw, my current fave combo is Logic + apogee. plb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted March 21, 2006 Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by Brittanylips fwiw, my current fave combo is Logic + apogee.plb That one sounds so good that it's actually made me think to jump ship and go with that (using PT LE currently). I think I suggested this as an option earlier in the thread, but it was shot down because it didn't offer enough inputs. Dunno....I do drums and bass simultaneously, so I don't need more than eight at a time (although I do have sixteen simultaneous inputs, eight of them are with the Digi001 converters, which sound like ass). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kes Posted March 21, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by EngineGuitarist if you don't have money to spend on pre's what are you going to use?there's no point to 32 inputs imo if you dont/won't have the ability to use them all, nevermind if you need to. I understand you want expandability, but getting 16 ins and 16 outs or subbing in a rosetta 800 for the Da16 and having 24 ins and 8 outs (depending on your needs) would make alot more sense cuz you could afford some nice pre's. but you'd still need a mixer. for the price of a AD16 you could get 5 or 6 channels of API pres, those and the dual portico would be enough for now combined with sometype of console for scratch tracks. you could get a bunch of cheaper pre's like the 4 ch. sytek for $800 (i think thats how much they are).what exactly is your plan. what kind of music are you going to be doing mostly? is it for yourself? what kind might you do occasionally that could need more gear? if you had a setup what would be the order you'd record the instruments and how many mics are you planning to put on each? what will be overdubbed or replaced?i think converters are important but using apogee converters with something like a mackie board (which you'll probbaly completely replace whatever you record through it) seems like a waste to me. but thats me. i will be having the follwing mic'd: - (2) five piece drum kits plus cymbals- (6) guitar amps, with 2 mics to each- various odd percussive instruments (bells, bongos, etc)- Vocals (1 mic) the music will be ambient/world/shoegaze stuff i suppose. i don't plan on using any 'real' console, just a control interface. all of the audio will be recorded with the computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted March 21, 2006 Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by kes i will be having the follwing mic'd:- (2) five piece drum kits plus cymbals- (6) guitar amps, with 2 mics to each- various odd percussive instruments (bells, bongos, etc)- Vocals (1 mic)the music will be ambient/world/shoegaze stuff i suppose.i don't plan on using any 'real' console, just a control interface. all of the audio will be recorded with the computer. You're not recording all this simultaneously, are you? Or maybe you are... You can easily record drums and bass in one pass, and then overdub everything else. Depends on how many mics you use on the drums. Sometimes, depending on the type of music, I'll use only four mics on drums, so that would free up a lot of channels right there if you only had eight simultaneous channels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EngineGuitarist Posted March 22, 2006 Members Share Posted March 22, 2006 Originally posted by kes i will be having the follwing mic'd:- (2) five piece drum kits plus cymbals- (6) guitar amps, with 2 mics to each- various odd percussive instruments (bells, bongos, etc)- Vocals (1 mic)the music will be ambient/world/shoegaze stuff i suppose.i don't plan on using any 'real' console, just a control interface. all of the audio will be recorded with the computer. ok, unless you will be doing that all at once you should be fine with 24 inputs. maybe even 16. and if you are doing it all at once you're going to need a ton of mics and preamps. if you just get a patch bay and have all the necessary mics to do it at once you can still have it all setup and just patch different mics into the pre's, set the gain and roll. to get enough pre's and mics and still be in your budget of 20k canadian, something in your setup would need to change. unless you got a used mackie 8bus and 32 sm57's. if you have another budget for mics and pre's i apologize but i just cant see how it would be possible this way. unless it was 99% 57->mackie->apogee. which is just insane to me. but hey, its your dough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kes Posted March 22, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 22, 2006 Originally posted by EngineGuitarist ok, unless you will be doing that all at once you should be fine with 24 inputs. maybe even 16. and if you are doing it all at once you're going to need a ton of mics and preamps. if you just get a patch bay and have all the necessary mics to do it at once you can still have it all setup and just patch different mics into the pre's, set the gain and roll. to get enough pre's and mics and still be in your budget of 20k canadian, something in your setup would need to change. unless you got a used mackie 8bus and 32 sm57's. if you have another budget for mics and pre's i apologize but i just cant see how it would be possible this way. unless it was 99% 57->mackie->apogee. which is just insane to me. but hey, its your dough. my $20,000.00 was excluding mics and pres, to clarify i'm a newbie to all fo this, so please forgive my ignorence. i'd never thought of using a patch bay. i suppose i'd never need more than 10 inputs going at once, so i could definitely get by just using that. what would be a good/reputable patchbay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nu-tra Posted March 22, 2006 Members Share Posted March 22, 2006 Get two lynx aurora 16's with Logic. That lynx kicks arse and its cheaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted March 22, 2006 Members Share Posted March 22, 2006 Originally posted by kes i'd never thought of using a patch bay. i suppose i'd never need more than 10 inputs going at once, so i could definitely get by just using that. what would be a good/reputable patchbay? Neutrik and Re'an seem fine. You can try and get by with 8. For me, it's no problem at all, but perhaps your needs are different. If ten, then just get something that accommodates ten, even if that ends up being 16. Getting 32 inputs or whatever is excessive, in my opinion, especially if you are just starting out. You can always get more converters later, can't you? Start out with some, work your way up later if your needs change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kes Posted March 22, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 22, 2006 Originally posted by UstadKhanAli Neutrik and Re'an seem fine.You can try and get by with 8. For me, it's no problem at all, but perhaps your needs are different. If ten, then just get something that accommodates ten, even if that ends up being 16. Getting 32 inputs or whatever is excessive, in my opinion, especially if you are just starting out. You can always get more converters later, can't you? Start out with some, work your way up later if your needs change. http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--REARPM48S the models i've seemed to encounter seem to feature only 1/4" connectors. would i not need an xlr bay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EngineGuitarist Posted March 22, 2006 Members Share Posted March 22, 2006 now we're getting somewhere. so whats your budget for pre's and mics? you're learning so its all good, this is why I and many other people here usually ask a ton of questions in the begining to find out EXACTLY what you will be doing and how you plan on going about it. i see plenty of posts where the poster doesn't give much if any info and asks very vague questions which usually results in not much info for them because we dont know enough about the situation to give a good answer. 10 inputs simultaneously vs. 32 changes things alot. how many headphone feeds would you need? let me know that and the mics and pre's budget and i'll gladly rethink this. while we're at it, what budgets do you have? another for monitors? outboard gear? acoustic treatment? wiring? you building stuff like walls? how much space do you have? its all about details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted March 22, 2006 Members Share Posted March 22, 2006 Originally posted by kes http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--REARPM48S the models i've seemed to encounter seem to feature only 1/4" connectors. would i not need an xlr bay? XLR would be preferable to 1/4" (it's balanced), but it's also a lot more expensive. It depends on what you are using. I use RNPs and a Portico and have 1/4" D-SUB connectors going into the Rosetta converter, so I suppose for me, the 1/4" patchbays are fine. But I don't know if this is ideal. I can tell you it works fine, but I don't know if it's ideal. Probably not, but I'm not a commercial pro studio. I can tell you that I get awesome sounds that you would find hard to believe come out of a home studio, so it's good enough to be on that level! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kes Posted March 23, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 Originally posted by EngineGuitarist while we're at it, what budgets do you have? another for monitors? outboard gear? acoustic treatment? wiring?you building stuff like walls? how much space do you have?its all about details. well, for monitors i was considering genelecs, as they've sounded really good to my ears. when it comes to treatment i can't really be sure at this point, as i'll be moving within the next few months, and at this point i'm not sure where. i've read up on modular 'soundproof' booths, but they seem really pricey. i'm not sure exactly what to expect when it comes to the cost of soundproofing. as for cabling, same situation. what's good? what's bad? currently i use Planet Waves cable for my guitar rig, and have noticed quite a difference in the clarity of my tone as a result (though this also has a lot to do with the use of a truebypass strip as well). for outboard gear i was considering 10-15K canadian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EngineGuitarist Posted March 23, 2006 Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 What is your budget for pre's and mics? you still haven't said. you can spend nothing to millions of dollars on acoustic design, construction and treatment so figuring out what you can afford to spend on it not effecting any other budget (or very little) is the first step. you are obviously going to be spending alot of dough on all this. choosing the gear is a good start but not knowing where you'll be makes the rest currently unanswerable (is that a word?). you could move to a place with solid brick walls and a concrete floor, or a place with regular drywall and studs, or maybe a place made of adobe or rammed earth. very different situations that would need different solutions and would cost differently. Wiring will depend on how permanent this is going to be as well as distance and how YOU want it setup. for example, the live room may only need 1 wall plate for mic inputs or it could be huge and need 4. the wiring would be different lengths for the wall plates as well. also how many inputs do you want on a wall plate. with iso booths its the same thing, how many mics will you use in the booth? plus don't forget about headphone feeds. if you aren't buying a place you probbaly dont want to have a few grand in wiring stuck in walls when you move. you'd probbaly want some snakes with floorboxes just going through a sealed hole in the wall so you dont have to rip the place apart to avoid re-buying your wiring. if you are buying the place and doing a permanent install then you'll probably want to think about what you may need/want in the future in terms of i/o or even if you'll have feeds for surround speakers in the wall for possible future use. so, are you going to buy the place or rent? and whats the budget for pre's and mics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kes Posted March 24, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 24, 2006 i'll be renting part of a house, unfortunately i can't give you dimensions, as i'm looking at several at the moment. also i should clarify, when i said outboard i wa refering to pres (15,000.00 CAN). as for mics, my budget is about $5-7,000.00 let me know if this sounds unrealistic. again, i really really appreciate the insight and helpful comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EngineGuitarist Posted March 24, 2006 Members Share Posted March 24, 2006 ok, so rethinking this now that i know more about your situation i came up with the following. first of all, unless you have one of the last generation G4's already I'd say an HD2 is out of your price range. or if you have something older the power in the HD2 may be close to a what a quad G5 can do and would cost several thousand more. like i said i haven't seen a direct comparison nor have i used Logic on a quad, but from what i hear that sucker is pretty damn powerful. so i'm saying go for the logic rig. unless you plan on hardly ever using midi, will need easy compatibility with other studios, have a preference towards protools, and can afford spending the extra dough. if you do then just add on like 3 or 4 grand (roughly) to the price of the logic rig. so, the computer.... G5 Quad (2.5ghz) w/ 2GB ram and a LAcie external 500GB drive- $4100 Logic- $1,000 Apogee AD16x-$3,200 Apogee DA16x- $3,200 Symphony Card- $715 Symphony x Card (for Ad16 and DA16)- 2x$180=$360 Big Ben (clock)- $1,350 that all comes to a little under $14,000. now i was thinking why not throw a UAD-1 ultra pak in there? well aparently the dont have a PCIe version yet AND they wont even be supporting Tiger til june. according to their site. id call or email them and see if they plan to. it would be a nice addition for about a grand IMO. so IF you can get that it would be $15,000 US dollars. 16 channels in and out, a nice clock, plenty of drive space, and a good amount of power. this fits your budget and leaves a little bit for other areas, like mics. speaking of, I hope that 5-7k for mics was american not canadian. i came up with a list that I think is quite nice but it comes in at 10k. a bit above, but with the extra from the computer rig above it wouldn't be that much more. unless you were hoping to spend 5k canadian on them. and if you were, taking 1 mic off would lower the price by 3 grand. so here's the mic list (1) SM7- $350(1) RE20- $400(3) 421's- 3x$330=$990(2) 414's- $1700Shure mic pack consisting of (3) SM57's and (1) Beta52- $450(2) 451's- $900(1) Royer 121- $1,100(1) AEA R84- $1,000(1) Soundelux U99- $2900 $9,800 i think this is quite a mic locker to be starting with. it covers pretty much everything giving you plenty of dynamic mics, a pair of LD condensers, a pair of SD condensers, a kick drum specific mic (not that you HAVE to use it that way), a couple ribbon mics and a nice tube condenser to boot. I'd suggest comparing the Josephson C42 to the AKG 451, they are both SD condensers and the same price so it is a matter of your taste. now for the outboard. 16 channels of pre's. 4 with EQ and 2 with compressor/limiter. these went to about 15K canadian from i know of the exchange rate, but i also put in a few compressors because I know i'd want them. they add up to a bunch more so i'd suggest checking them out and maybe getting 1 if thats all you can afford. but if you can swing it the 3 would be friggin sweet as they do different things. but dont take the money out of the acoustics budget! (4) API 512 pre's w/ FREE lunchbox- $2500 (4ch.)(1) Great river MP2NV- $2150 (2 ch.)(1) Avalon 2020- $2500 (2ch.)(2) Daking Mic Pre/EQ- $2700 (2ch.)(1)Langevin DVC (pre,eq, comp/limiter)- $1,800 (2ch.)(1) Sytek MPX-4Aii- $890 (4ch.) $12,540 for the above 16 ch. of pre's.now the compressor listDistressor w/ brit mod-$1475MC77- $1,650CL1B- $2495together those comps would be $5620 which is alot more but like i said, id recommend getting at least one. thats about $37k without the 3 extra compressors. and a sweet group it is. now if you can swing this how much do you have left for everything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EveningSky Posted March 25, 2006 Members Share Posted March 25, 2006 As a Digital Performer 4.6 user, I am curious how this application compares in audio quality with Logic and Cubase sx. I accept the comments made about the relative unimportance of the DAW software, but wonder nonetheless how DP compares in audio quality to other choices on the Mac market. The cost of upgrading is so significant, that if the quality is significantly better, I will consider a change. As an "aging American" I do appreciate the "user friendly" reputation of DP and I have learned many features of the package, although many features remain to be learned and mastered. It also has a good reputation for MIDI, which I do not use that much at present. Yours, ES, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AXEMAN720 Posted March 26, 2006 Members Share Posted March 26, 2006 i use an hd3accel system everyday and i love it more than any other system, but i think that PTLE sounds horrible. i worked on a 002 system for a year or so and i firmly believe that the bounce to disk feature on that system severly degraded my mixes. but on the hd system everything sounds consistent, especially since we are running a big ben with it. i would however sacrifice a bit of sound quality for the pro tools interface and features, i love it that much, meaning i would still take LE over nuendo or cubase, i'm just comfortable on it. i do however think that nuendo blows away LE price and soundwise. just my two cents though. but until then ill take my hd system with our new chandler summing amp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nickyjoe Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Apple continues to produce "pro apps" software that is very feature rich for the bucks and have taken on industry standards e.g. Avid, Photoshop, After Effects, etc. Nuff said there... PTools to date is the DAW standard - I believe in the hardware mics, converters, mic pres & some of today's plug ins. For me...a Digi 002 & set of pres / converter (always like Apogee stuff) w/ ADAT I/Os looks like my future. I use Logic but do like to switch between PTools for some editing - I also use Final Cut Studio and Avid. For me the software "interface" is what you're most comfortable to produce the best Music...to be the most creative you can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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