Members id-man Posted July 24, 2006 Members Share Posted July 24, 2006 I just posted this in the "Report Fake eBay Auctions" thread but I think maybe it warrants it's own topic. We've seen a lot of people getting ripped off royally on fake Gibsons and other misrepresented brands. Few of us are experts in these matters (well not me anyway, that's for sure), and while some fakes are easy to spot, others are damn subtle to the untrained eye. Where are we to turn for help in authenticating? Gibson (for one) and eBay have been practically useless in doing anything about it. Instead of just bitching about it maybe we can start doing something to make it easier to spot a forgery. What if we collectively began assembling our own gallery of known "CORRECT" Gibson images? Here's a first submission; the headstock of my 2006 Vintage Mahogany LP recently acquired from Musician's Friend. It's a good straight-on shot and I've got a nice blow-up of it too. Anybody looking at a Vintage Mahogany should see this EXACTLY. Who's got others? Link to enlargement And I realize this problem is not limited to Gibson - they just seem to be hot right now. Maybe we should have a gallery of Gretch and PRS etc also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Professor Tom Posted July 24, 2006 Members Share Posted July 24, 2006 There's a Brit collector (Phil Harris) who is a genuine expert and he says he has seen fakes that would fool anybody and he has been taken in himself a few times. I believe there are collectors out there that have fakes in their collections and I would be careful myself should I buy another vintage guitar, very careful ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzy4dice Posted July 24, 2006 Members Share Posted July 24, 2006 I was in GC the other day and the salesperson and a buyer were checking out a LP very carefully to see if it was fake. The salesperson seemed to think it was, and was not happy about it. It looked AWESOME, and I didn't know what they were talking about. But, it was probably a fake. No, it definitely does not need to be some lopsided, cheap, funny, Chinese fake in order to be fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members larryguitar Posted July 24, 2006 Members Share Posted July 24, 2006 I'd guess that the fakes fooling the experts are something other than the Chinese garbage, right? We'd be talking a reasonable level of accuracy and quality. Another question-if an expert and a player can't tell it's a fake, what's it worth as a player? This is going to get messy, I think. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzy4dice Posted July 24, 2006 Members Share Posted July 24, 2006 It's like counterfeit money. If it's good enough, it keeps getting passed along, and it kinda becomes "real" money. I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members id-man Posted July 24, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2006 Originally posted by larryguitar I'd guess that the fakes fooling the experts are something other than the Chinese garbage, right? We'd be talking a reasonable level of accuracy and quality.Yes, that's my goal. Another question - if an expert and a player can't tell it's a fake, what's it worth as a player? Great point, but the bulk of the problem is not at that level. This is going to get messy, I think.Nah, hope not. I didn't mean this as a debate of fake quality or value, or whether it's right or wrong or if the problem is fixable - only a possible way to start gathering a database of reference images to share. I think it's the next extension of the "Report Fake Auctions" concept. Instead of just saying 'that's a fake' go ahead and do the extra work to show WHY it's a fake with photographic reference of what it's supposed to look like. Headstocks, hardware details, pickup & wiring details, whatever helps to prove or disprove an article's accuracy. This could be grown over time but ideally would consist of images we have taken ourselves rather than downloaded from other sources or linked to from someone else's webpage. And the images could be hosted right on HC so there's no lost links or missing images over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scott_335 Posted July 24, 2006 Members Share Posted July 24, 2006 I think its a good idea. I also have to wonder this: if there is a guitar that is so good that it can fool everyone, does it matter if it is a fake? It wouldnt to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members larryguitar Posted July 24, 2006 Members Share Posted July 24, 2006 Originally posted by id-man Yes, that's my goal. Great point, but the bulk of the problem is not at that level. Nah, hope not. I didn't mean this as a debate of fake quality or value, or whether it's right or wrong or if the problem is fixable - only a possible way to start gathering a database of reference images to share. I think it's the next extension of the "Report Fake Auctions" concept. Instead of just saying 'that's a fake' go ahead and do the extra work to show WHY it's a fake with photographic reference of what it's supposed to look like. Headstocks, hardware details, pickup & wiring details, whatever helps to prove or disprove an article's accuracy. This could be grown over time but ideally would consist of images we have taken ourselves rather than downloaded from other sources or linked to from someone else's webpage. And the images could be hosted right on HC so there's no lost links or missing images over time. For the record-I meant the problem of FAKES was going to create a mess, not this thread-thread's a great idea, IMHO. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members leopardstar Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 heres my sg supreme headstock if thats helps keep people from being ripped off then F'n great this is a 2005 and only has two truss rod cover screws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Splendor Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 I assume your truss rod cover only has two screws, right leopardstar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members leopardstar Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by SentimentalMood I assume your truss rod cover only has two screws, right leopardstar? actually it has 5 why? jk yes theres only two:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members id-man Posted July 25, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by leopardstar heres my sg supreme headstock Yeah, good one. That's the kind of straight-on shot that can really help someone looking at a SG supreme. Good detail in the binding and inlay. I don't know enough to know if the exact year matters, but it you (anyone posting an image) has the correct date it'd probably be best to list it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members id-man Posted July 25, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 By the way, I work with PhotoShop for a living - to aid in this project I offer my services if anyone wants to send an image that could use cropping, rotating, resizing, etc. I could even add type like I did in my Vintage Mahogany sample so the pic never gets separated from it's caption. Send me a PM with a link to the image, or post them here and I can grab them and re-post after optimizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aclarke Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by larryguitar I'd guess that the fakes fooling the experts are something other than the Chinese garbage, right?We'd be talking a reasonable level of accuracy and quality.Another question-if an expert and a player can't tell it's a fake, what's it worth as a player?This is going to get messy, I think.Larry I met a guy in Sapporo who makes "replicas" of '59 bursts. It's his hobby. He knows everything about them, down to the manufacturers of the electronic components. And he builds them. NOS pots, caps, everything. Exact copies, down to the last detail. He's not the only one. He sells them as replicas. How they get re-sold, that's another story. Reminds me of Buzz Rickson's in a way - the Japanese clothing manufacturer that makes exact copies of WW2 US armed forces jackets. They actually went so far as to go the US and buy the machinery used to make the buttons on the originals in the 1940's. Otaku chic. From what I've seen over the years, my suspicion is that at the very least, one third of all the vintage LP's, Strats, and Teles on the market are fakes, and in many cases you'll never know without sending it to a lab for analysis - something I'm sure we'll start to see as the prices continue to climb. That stuff is out there though - being made here and in the USA. Probably elsewhere too. Now that it's in the greater public eye as a cool investment, I'm sure there will be more forgeries. I don't think you can stop the high end stuff, big bucks but small numbers. The ebay {censored} is a different story. This stuff will probably have an impact on the used market, and a lot more people are going to be stung by it. It is going to be messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hondro Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by aclarke I met a guy in Sapporo who makes "replicas" of '59 bursts. It's his hobby. He knows everything about them, down to the manufacturers of the electronic components. And he builds them. NOS pots, caps, everything. Exact copies, down to the last detail. He's not the only one. He sells them as replicas. How they get re-sold, that's another story. Reminds me of Buzz Rickson's in a way - the Japanese clothing manufacturer that makes exact copies of WW2 US armed forces jackets. They actually went so far as to go the US and buy the machinery used to make the buttons on the originals in the 1940's. Otaku chic. From what I've seen over the years, my suspicion is that at the very least, one third of all the vintage LP's, Strats, and Teles on the market are fakes, and in many cases you'll never know without sending it to a lab for analysis - something I'm sure we'll start to see as the prices continue to climb. That stuff is out there though - being made here and in the USA. Probably elsewhere too. Now that it's in the greater public eye as a cool investment, I'm sure there will be more forgeries. I don't think you can stop the high end stuff, big bucks but small numbers. The ebay {censored} is a different story. This stuff will probably have an impact on the used market, and a lot more people are going to be stung by it. It is going to be messy. yeah, really high end copies are something that are bound to happen I mean, when you can sell a 59 burst for 200k, you can spend the money (hell, 10 grand) to make it PERFECT but the stuff on ebay, is NOT good quality, nor is it supposed to be BETTER than Gibsons (like high end copies) and here's a pic of my SG Classic headstock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members leopardstar Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by id-man By the way, I work with PhotoShop for a living - to aid in this project I offer my services if anyone wants to send an image that could use cropping, rotating, resizing, etc. I could even add type like I did in my Vintage Mahogany sample so the pic never gets separated from it's caption. Send me a PM with a link to the image, or post them here and I can grab them and re-post after optimizing. hey it might be a good idea to put like my screen name on the photo so it doesn't end up being hijacked, and i did go back and add the year. come on guys lets see some more pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members id-man Posted July 25, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by leopardstar hey it might be a good idea to put like my screen name on the photo so it doesn't end up being hijacked, and i did go back and add the year. Good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wedgehed II Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 This a velly, velly rare Gibson erectrical guitar. Not many made. Mr. Gibson sued for using other man's design. He cease & desist chop-chop. Price on guitar show me honest, $2500! You buy now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChrisGansz Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by wedgehed II This a velly, velly rare Gibson erectrical guitar. Not many made. Mr. Gibson sued for using other man's design. He cease & desist chop-chop. Price on guitar show me honest, $2500! You buy now! HAHAHA! You are such a dick! HAHAHAHA! :D ahsoooooooooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Soul Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 this is a great idea, the chinese could use a good point of reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members larryguitar Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by aclarke I met a guy in Sapporo who makes "replicas" of '59 bursts. It's his hobby. He knows everything about them, down to the manufacturers of the electronic components. And he builds them. NOS pots, caps, everything. Exact copies, down to the last detail. He's not the only one. He sells them as replicas. How they get re-sold, that's another story.Reminds me of Buzz Rickson's in a way - the Japanese clothing manufacturer that makes exact copies of WW2 US armed forces jackets. They actually went so far as to go the US and buy the machinery used to make the buttons on the originals in the 1940's. Otaku chic. From what I've seen over the years, my suspicion is that at the very least, one third of all the vintage LP's, Strats, and Teles on the market are fakes, and in many cases you'll never know without sending it to a lab for analysis - something I'm sure we'll start to see as the prices continue to climb. That stuff is out there though - being made here and in the USA. Probably elsewhere too. Now that it's in the greater public eye as a cool investment, I'm sure there will be more forgeries. I don't think you can stop the high end stuff, big bucks but small numbers. The ebay {censored} is a different story. This stuff will probably have an impact on the used market, and a lot more people are going to be stung by it. It is going to be messy. I know this is OT, but it's popular in Japan to wear WWII US army gear? Woulda' never figured on THAT! Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aclarke Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by larryguitar I know this is OT, but it's popular in Japan to wear WWII US army gear? Woulda' never figured on THAT! Larry Not popular, really. It's kind of hard to describe. Some people kind of collect the stuff. Some people wear it. It's not a mainstream thing. It's kind of like.... AH! Trekkies. It's kind of like trekkies. Sort of. Otaku. Collecting for the sake of collecting. To be fair though, the Rickson's stuff is INCREDIBLE. I'm really tempted to pick up a leather aviator jacket, just beacuse they're so well made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Koz Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by aclarke Not popular, really. It's kind of hard to describe. Some people kind of collect the stuff. Some people wear it. It's not a mainstream thing. It's kind of like.... AH! Trekkies. It's kind of like trekkies. Sort of. Otaku. Collecting for the sake of collecting. To be fair though, the Rickson's stuff is INCREDIBLE. I'm really tempted to pick up a leather aviator jacket, just beacuse they're so well made. Are they only available in Japan? I think the A2 and G2 jackets are classically cool designs. I'd love a B3 bomber jacket (the wool lined bomber jacket you'll often times see WW2 bomber crews wearing at altitude on History Channel, Patton wore a modifed B3 instead of the standard tanker's jacket.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aclarke Posted July 25, 2006 Members Share Posted July 25, 2006 Originally posted by Koz Are they only available in Japan? I think the A2 and G2 jackets are classically cool designs. I'd love a B3 bomber jacket (the wool lined bomber jacket you'll often times see WW2 bomber crews wearing at altitude on History Channel, Patton wore a modifed B3 instead of the standard tanker's jacket.) googled and got this: http://historypreservation.com/hpassociates/buzzrlanding_2.php I think I've hijacked this thread enough, PM me if you want more info.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members id-man Posted July 26, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 26, 2006 Anyone else care to contribute reference shots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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