Members 6Imzadi Posted February 15, 2007 Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 Okay, here's a question... Room:30' drop ceiling (black tile and grid)85' wide90' deepbalcony about 75' from stage Goal:Try to cover all the seats with 100dBNo speakers visible for sight line purposes. Could I:Install the speakers above the ceiling tile? Using cloth to take the place of the tile at that location?. How many would it take at the angle they would be aimed at?At that height, what footprint size would they project? Am I on drugs? IOW, has this even been tried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 15, 2007 Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 A 30' ceiling height ... that's a LONG way for a ceiling speaker to throw. You'd have to space them a long ways apart too to avoid overlap and comb filtering. This just doesn't look like a job for ceiling speakers. How about a nice line array? In fact you can click here and download our free line array calculator. Just draw the floor length and ceiling height and it will calculate the aim angle and even tell you the frequency response at distance. http://www.peavey.com/support/software/ease.cfm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members milesdf Posted February 15, 2007 Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 large array is pretty necessary here, compact line array groundstacked would probablly be the easiest, for sightlines possibly look into flying, this is gonna require alot more work/knowledge. putting them above the drop ceiling is going to be tough, probablly impossible because you will have to get them through the grid first. if its necessary to get them off the ground check to see if the venue has building info/engineering on file. check out local rental houses for compact line array stacks and racks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 15, 2007 Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 One problem with speakers in the ceiling is that there will be a definate effect of the sound coming from above and in some cases behind the audience. Multiple speakers and overlapping can also be a solution, but still localization of the sourse is a problem. Spherical patterns are the norm, just hanging regular speakers won't be so good due to HF beaming of typical horns making the localization of the sound source seem worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 15, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 One problem with speakers in the ceiling is that there will be a definate effect of the sound coming from above and in some cases behind the audience. What would be a solution for this anomaly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 15, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 I'm trying to keep the front of the room from getting hit too hard with sound, and the back and balcony getting "sloppiness" FROM the room.If this makes any sense.i.e. Direct sound in every seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 15, 2007 Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 What would be a solution for this anomaly? Not much, but you may be able to mask the effect somewhat by using a primary sound source from the front and supplimental support from overhead at just enough volume to do the job. Of course, you must delay the overhead speakers to match the path length of the primary source. It may require more than one zone of delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 16, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 you may be able to mask the effect somewhat by using a primary sound source from the front and supplimental support from overhead at just enough volume to do the job. This is a great idea. Have a small maybe center cluster for the front point source. This will give the illusion that the sound originates from the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 16, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 THanks for the great information, guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 16, 2007 Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 This is a great idea. Have a small maybe center cluster for the front point source. This will give the illusion that the sound originates from the front. Provided it's loud enough. Typically it will need to be only a few dB different (higher) from the level of the ceiling speakers, but this will buy you somewhere around 6dB of additional gain before feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 16, 2007 Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 I'm trying to keep the front of the room from getting hit too hard with sound, and the back and balcony getting "sloppiness" FROM the room.If this makes any sense.i.e. Direct sound in every seat. That's the real beauty of a properly aimed line array system. You can shoot the sound to where you want it without spraying the sound every where else. They are really a tool for pattern control ... not just for general loudness. The other thing is the fact that they only lose 3 dB per distance doubling instead of 6 dB like point source speakers means you can be loud in the back row without frying the people in the front rows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted February 16, 2007 Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 If you did go with ceiling speakers, couldn't you solve the "sound coming from behind the audience" by attenuating the volume by a small amount at each "row" of speakers? This might be harder than I'm imagining, but assuming the volume level goes from 1-9, with 9 being the loudest, we'd have something like: | the stage | Assuming it's a regular shape anyway)6 7 9 9 9 7 6 This way, the sound always appears to be5 7 8 9 8 7 5 coming from the front of wherever someone4 6 7 8 7 6 4 is sitting -- and if they're sitting off to one3 5 6 7 6 5 3 of the sides, it appears that it's coming more2 4 5 6 5 4 2 from the center of the place, too. Obviously1 3 4 5 4 3 1 the soundscape would be much wider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted February 16, 2007 Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 Note that I don't mean the volume would be really quiet back at 1... only that it would be slightly less loud than 2, etc. Even a 1dB drop at each point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 16, 2007 Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 Yes, the volume of the speakers farther back would be slightly less as you move back, but you will still hear the sound from above and back due to the relative levels. They are not different enough to eliminate the problem. It is a viable solution where intelligibility is more important though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 16, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 I really wasn't thinking about distributed speakers. Although, maybe as a filler as was mentioned. My actual original thought was to use a line array, only installed above the ceiling before the grid was installed. Each of the element speakers in the array spaced so that the "footprint" at the seats meets back up. I can imagine this scenario, but am not sure how to implement it. If I install them on 20' centers in the x/y plane on the roof structure, zone them individually, each on theiir own amp and delay, would this work? Also, will sound travel through a projection screen? Or will it degrade it to the point of not being worth setting speakers behind it? I think this along with the center cluster of 5 wide and 2 high would make each seat feel like listening to headphones. Speakers in the ceiling actuall aimed not only down, but back as well. This shoulld help with not perceiving it to generate from above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 16, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 While this thread is facinating me, I have to get ready for a show tonight. First one back after being off for winter break(and to learn some new songs). See 'ya tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members solomaniac17 Posted February 17, 2007 Members Share Posted February 17, 2007 house system?? cant u compromise. a bit? this is a very diffirent situation I encountered however Ill quickly explain. Using a line array in a very large low cieling level banquet hall which was extremly long with 1000+ seating occupants for a cooperate microsoft event.... we simply tapped into the house ceiling speaker system, just to compensate for the low level ceiling effecting the apropriate calibration for the Line array. It wasnt the best idea but it worked for the night, which wasnt properly planed to begin with considering the low level cielings obviously was completley over looked, nevertheless to confirm the audience at the far back would be at a comfortable volume level as everything closer to center stage. It did the trick.. If their is a house system.. maybe you could use it to your advantage depending on the state, and design? usually house systems like that, are nightmare to even consider, but just for some compensation purpose, I think it can be consider again in the event that the lin array isnt compatible after rigging. Ya I know.. how could that happen in the first place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sharnrock Posted February 17, 2007 Members Share Posted February 17, 2007 Also, will sound travel through a projection screen? Or will it degrade it to the point of not being worth setting speakers behind it? I would be afraid of the speakers rattling the screen and making the stuff on it go all bubbly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DJ Swydez Posted February 17, 2007 Members Share Posted February 17, 2007 Also, will sound travel through a projection screen? Or will it degrade it to the point of not being worth setting speakers behind it? High frequencies will not penetrate projector screens... I have tried it... I have set up speakers directly behind a pull down screen and you can hear the lows, but the highs are non-existent... If you move the screen and expose the horns again, they magically reappear... So you really can't put the tops behind a pull-down projector screen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 17, 2007 Members Share Posted February 17, 2007 But it does depend on the projection screen type. Think for just a second... how do you think movie theatres accomplish this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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