Members msmr3inc Posted October 31, 2014 Members Share Posted October 31, 2014 I run a small a/v rental company that supports primarily dinner/lunch/business meetings. My audiences are usually small, from 10 to 50 or so. My presenters typically talk for about an hour, and I normally set them up with a lav mic. I've been using Audio-Technica 2000 Series UHF 10 Channel Rigs for many years now, as they're quite rugged, easy to use, and the cost is good. My only complaint is the standard mic that's included with the rig. I often have issues with tunnel sound, ambient noise, feedback, etc. I run the mics through a simple 10 channel mixer with 3 band eq on each strip. I usually have to drop the highs down a bit and pull mids out almost completely, otherwise I'll have feedback issues. When we run directly to our PA speakers, which have Hi/Lo only, we have to pull Hi out almost completely, and even back off on low a lot, otherwise we have the tunnel sound and sometimes feedback problems. We've tried experimenting with mic placement, from mid-chest, to just under the chin. And, inevitably, when the speaker turns their head to look at their own projection screen, the audio drops out a lot. We've also played with squelch and gain, but usually to no avail. We're setting up in different rooms and venues every night, so room setup, echo, furniture, etc, changes all the time. It just makes setting up a good sounding pa setup difficult. We've always just sorta dealt with it. The client usually can't really tell the audio isn't sounding great, but I know, and it drives me crazy. I've contacted Audio-Technica directly to ask for advice, and got very little. The tech replied telling me to place the mic better (thanks for nothing). Anyway, I know there are dozens of different mics for my rig, Cardoid, Cardoid Condenser, Omnidirectional, etc. I'm just wondering what others with this issue have done to clean up their live sound spoken word, and any advice would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted October 31, 2014 Members Share Posted October 31, 2014 The first thing to remember is that Lav mics aren't a good choice for Live PA work. You cannot escape the simple inverse square rule. The mic ends up ten times further away from the mouth of the person speaking and so it requires ten times the gain, hence it is 10 times more likely to feedback. No matter what mic you use this will still be a gating issue. Also, you may not realize, but turning down the mids and highs on a channel with a typical 3 band EQ is very, very close to just turning down the master volume on the channel so you are making very little if any forward progress here. I have always preferred to use omni mics with anything that is a moving sound source. They are much flatter in their response but if you are using monitors they may have a problem with feedback, though this is not a guaranteed outcome. At least you wont get huge tonal shifts when the speaker turns their head. What to do? Well using a headset mic would probably fix all your issues or a traditional mic on a stand. If that is not an option then getting a much more expensive lab mic may be a small improvement. This would also be a good place to insert a feedback manager such as those by Sabine, Peavey or DBX and then return your EQ on the channel to flat. But if you must use a lab mic you will always be fighting the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members msmr3inc Posted October 31, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2014 Mr. Boomer, Thanks for the input, very much appreciated. No, there are no monitors used. Typically one or two 12"/15" powered PA speakers on tripods. Pretty basic and simple. Bringing extra gear like eqs or feedback destroyers aren't in the cards either. We typically try to set the PA sound using the simple tools made available on the mixer, the mic base station, gain control on the body pack, etc. This is all spoken voice only, no music, no singing. Now, the mic included with the AT2000 series rigs are cheap, $30-ish, cardoid mics. AT does offer some nicer Omni mics, about $80 to $150 or so. If we don't pan down those mids and highs, we have feedback, almost always, and a tunnel sounds. I'll try an Omni style lav mic and see how that works. I have head-worn mics, which do really help, but these presenters aren't gonna use them, period. They all want the lav style mics. Thanks so much, Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 What dboomer says is absolutely correct. IF you could talk your client into it, a headset mic is the way to go. Even an inexpensive headset mic will trump a lav just due to it's superior placement (but obviously that isn't possible in your situation). There are some extremely high end expensive Lavs (Countryman, DPA, Sony, Neumann) that are used in broadcast. Keep in mind though that broadcast is rarely a closed loop (feedback prone) system. At 20 times the cost for a possible 10% quality gain just doesn't make economic sense. Yes Lavaliere mics are the bain of SR engineers. I've gone as far as patching a 1/3 octave graph into the channel to get better control. Try the feedback eliminator. This sounds like the perfect place for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 There are 2 low end lab mics shipped with the AT2000 series, the 829 and 830. Both are really just plain awful for live use. Horrible off axis response and only mediocre on axis. My first choice in the AT line would be the 831 which is a major improvement, but I agree with Don and JR that a headset mic like the AT Pro 92 would be WAY better. That's been my experience. The BP892 is even better and really tiny. I have a couple used ones and plenty of new ones available, PM me if interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 I can say the 830 is crap, Ive got 4 channels of atw2000 lav mics as well. Not fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members msmr3inc Posted November 1, 2014 Author Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 Thanks all for the input, it is very much appreciated. Yes, the head-worn is not an option. Most of my presenters are older doctors, both men and women, and they will not wear a head-worn mic. It has to be Lav. And every room is different, every voice, every situation, just a pain in the butt. I see some nicer AT cardoid-condenser and omnidirectionals for around $75 to $100 or so. I'm gonna spring for one of each and just experiment at this point. The 829cW, 830cW and 831cW's are just terrible. They just sound bad. I'm also thinking about changing mixers and purchasing something, 8 to 12 channel or so, with a built in 5 or 7 channel eq, along with the channel strip 3 freq sweepable eq, giving me some more control that way. My biggest complaint, luckily they're rare, is the metallic/tunnel sound. Messing with the three channels of eq offered on my lower end mixer just isn't enough to clean up the sound. I could bring a feedback destroyer, but we usually have a very limited time to setup, and we're only there for about 90 minutes, so the least amount of equipment used is a must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 Other than plugging it in, no setup is required to use a feedback manager. In fact they work even better when used in dynamic mode. If you get no feedback then nothing happens and if you do it steps in. I think if you want to make any difference with lav mic selection you'll be wasting your money unless you step up into the $300 range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 I could bring a feedback destroyer, but we usually have a very limited time to setup, and we're only there for about 90 minutes, so the least amount of equipment used is a must. I have to agree with Don once more. The feedback destroyers are a snap to use (the only setup time is plugging them in and hitting the switch). Dynamic mode is quick & easy. It may not cure all of the "tunnel effect" you speak of but I'd bet if you ended up with more GBF the device would have automatically notched the offending frequencies (very accurately) and the sound would clean up quite a bit. All with very little time or energy spent on your part. Also in automatic (dynamic) mode it would adapt to the different rooms you're in giving you a more consistent sound (acoustics are what they are - it will never be exactly the same but greatly improved). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 I have to disagree, the 831 is a very good lav in the right application, and when used with the right tools. I have about 18 channels with 831's that work quite well. I prefer headsets but when not an option, the 831's do just fine Metallic sound is way more likely an RF artifact from intermodulation products or operation within an already congested or occupied rf area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted November 2, 2014 Members Share Posted November 2, 2014 I may sell of 2-3 channels of body pack plus 829 or whatever I have, I'd be interested in trying the 831 if it's decent. I'd also be willing to try a feedback killer only in this application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted November 2, 2014 Members Share Posted November 2, 2014 I may sell of 2-3 channels of body pack plus 829 or whatever I have, I'd be interested in trying the 831 if it's decent. I'd also be willing to try a feedback killer only in this application. This is what feedback killers kill at (pun intended). I'm not a fan of using them for musical performances either as they can make things decidedly unmusical if overused. Computers and analysis gear are great helpers in finding trouble spots but they have no musical sense (sometimes it's OK to allow some minor issues because the correction can muck up the performance (usually a judgment call in poor acoustic environments)). Sometimes the effects of the cure is worse than the malady. Having these tools available is useful though in case something gets out of hand and HAS to be rectified, you know more accurately what to do (or in this case allow it to do it for you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted November 2, 2014 Members Share Posted November 2, 2014 This is what feedback killers kill at (pun intended). I'm not a fan of using them for musical performances either as they can make things decidedly unmusical if overused. Computers and analysis gear are great helpers in finding trouble spots but they have no musical sense . I gotta disagree. When "good ones" are used properly this rarely happens. It almost never happens (until you are well past the capabilities of the system) when used on individual channels but it can happen when you use one across an entire bus. You can't expect as much out of it if you do it that way. But even if it did happen, which would you rather have ... a small shift in tone or runaway feedback? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted November 6, 2014 Members Share Posted November 6, 2014 I gotta disagree. When "good ones" are used properly this rarely happens. It almost never happens (until you are well past the capabilities of the system) when used on individual channels but it can happen when you use one across an entire bus. You can't expect as much out of it if you do it that way. But even if it did happen, which would you rather have ... a small shift in tone or runaway feedback? Sorry I guess my rant got a bit out of hand. I DID say "if they're overused" but didn't expand on that phrase. Used properly they can do a fine job with far less fuss (and more accuracy) than doing it by ear. I can say I've heard them overused more often than not though (this is operator error though, not the fault of the device). In these cases the shift in tonal quality was more than small. Agreed runaway feedback is unacceptable. Any engineer worth their salt should be able to take a parametric and find the worst problem areas (and recognize the difference between an acoustic issue and an equipment response issue). Yes there is absolutely a place in audio for feedback killers (the OP's situation is a classic one). I guess I'm just old school & simplistic but I DO recognize their value when applied properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted November 6, 2014 Members Share Posted November 6, 2014 The Pro 92 was referred to as a head worn mic which is technically right but is actually an ear worn mic that your presenters may not mind using. IMO, well worth trying at the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members msmr3inc Posted October 25, 2018 Author Members Share Posted October 25, 2018 agedhorse, I took your advice (some time ago, as it's 2018 and I posted this issue 4 years ago!!). Anyway, I went with the 831's and they're vastly better than the stock 829's. Feedback, ring and whine issues pretty much went away completely. I have about 40 of these AT2000 series rigs used nightly out in the field, and I provided 831's for all of them (bout $95 each). On the rare occasion one of my techs uses an 829, they have nothing but issues. So thanks again (belatedly!) - Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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