Classical Pianist Seeking Advice on Digitals

[Rickideemus]

Greetings!

 

I've been playing piano all my life ("born with a piano in my mouth" ;-} ), and even made a living at it for some 17 years, along with private teaching. Naturally, I've played on a digital now and then (Clavinola, Yammies, Roland), but I'm basically ignorant about MIDI, etc. I've even done a little computer programming in my day, but I just never put the two together. I guess you could call me a reactionary.

 

Well, I took a couple years off from the bidness, but now I am planning my BIG COME BACK. Yep -- gotta spring for a keyboard. I need something with 88 keys (otherwise you can't even play the first three notes of Rachmaninoff's C# minor Etude, fergawdsake), and I'm not a snob about weighted keys, but I played enough on a DGX300 to know that won't quite cut it (though I admit it's easier to control than just about any Spinet I've played around town). I made the sales guy drag out a DGX505, and it's exactly the same deal.

 

I'd like it to have onboard speakers, so I can cart it to the corner bar or the lounge in my apartment building and just play without the fuss. But I also need to be able to plug in to a sound system, like for a local show or beauty pageant. (A DGX300 was very cool for a pageant a few years ago, since there were built-in "Ta-Dahs" and drum rolls, and I could layer in the strings with the piano for some numbers.)

 

I also want the ability to hook up to the computer, and I'm hoping the computer will be able to take dictation from my playing (30 seconds at a time would be fine). Like to be able to throw together some simple arrangements, then put them on a disk or SmartMedia card and blow 'em out the keyboard. But I'm not looking for a complete recording studio. Eg., I don't see a mixer in my immediate future.

 

Now here's the thing: *I* think I should be able to get all this for well under $1,000! I mean, it seems the DGX505 meets all my needs, except for the non-weighted keys. If you can get a DGX505 for around $500, why should it cost another $700 just for decent weighted keys? Best price on a P-140 is about $1200, and it has far fewer sounds and a tiny display. Speaker size and wattage are about the same.

 

Shoot, I'd think they could get a pretty dang good action just with two springs per key. Whadda concept, eh? After all, the isuue is CONTROL, not a perfect replication of grand piano feel. There's a HUMUNGOUS difference between the actions on a grand piano and a console or spinet anyhow.

 

My theory is they deliberately withhold key features to get certain price points, but I fully admit my ignorance on all things MIDI, so please explan what I'm missing! Is the P-140 that much better as a MIDI controller? I don't see it on the spec sheet. Or could the materials and the extra 10 lbs. make for a kind of sounding board on the P-140 to improve the sound THAT much?

 

I've been studying the spec sheets on the internet. Got letters and numbers coming out my whatsis. Here's my list of reqs:

 

- main use as practice/performance piano

- also use as a simple (beginner's) midi controller to a computer sequencer

- very good piano sound, but touch (control!) may be more important even than sound

- at least 8 or 9 other good sounds

- 88 keys all working correctly

- weighted (or semi-weighted?)

- velocity sensitive, of course

- decent speakers onboard, and also able to connect to externals

- at least 32 note polyphony

- built-in USB MIDI or regular MIDI interface

- line in/out (or would dual headphone jacks suffice?)

- under $1,000 new unit price, but will happily accept refurbished with a warranty for hundreds less.

- ooh-ah factor -- a few bells and whistles (reverb, display, etc.)

- ability to accept songs from the computer

- probably don't need to take samples with the keyboard, but it would be nice if keyboard could take a sample or two off the drive or SM card

- disk drive or SmartMedia (isn't a drive better? Seems like a SmartMedia card is too small to label properly!)

- portable -- as light as possible -- 40 lbs or less

- sustain pedal, of course

- pitch wheel for the midi input

- ability to transpose (not necessarily a mod wheel per se)

- soft pedal option would be nice -- not essential

- probably don't need a sequencer except on the computer

- aftertouch would be nice, but low on the list

 

Anyhow, I'm trending more and more toward the Privia PX-400R. Is this the biggest mistake of my life? This is just based on stuff I've read on the net. I haven't played one yet. I'm very wide open to suggestions.

 

TIA,

Rick

[lakelanddude]

Casio PX700 seem to be very decent for its price , sound and finish. PX400R is not a bad idea either. It is designed for stage performance though. If you play piano mostly, you don't need that pitch band/Mod wheel. P140 is just overpriced. I tried it often and never impressed me in anyway ...

If you play classicals, you need weighted keys. You will also need multilayered piano patches(3 velocity layers minimum). All digitals have velocity sensitivity settings. Expensive models have 1 to 127 range settings while others have light, medium and heavy settings. Real Weighted keys use small metal weights for that progressive heavy feeling while others like DGX just use springs for key resistance. I guess that makes the difference in price.

[Outkaster]

 

Originally posted by lakelanddude Casio PX700 seem to be very decent for its price , sound and finish. PX400R is not a bad idea either. It is designed for stage performance though. If you play piano mostly, you don't need that pitch band/Mod wheel. P140 is just overpriced. I tried it often and never impressed me in anyway ... If you play classicals, you need weighted keys. You will also need multilayered piano patches(3 velocity layers minimum). All digitals have velocity sensitivity settings. Expensive models have 1 to 127 range settings while others have light, medium and heavy settings. Real Weighted keys use small metal weights for that progressive heavy feeling while others like DGX just use springs for key resistance. I guess that makes the difference in price.

 

 

 

A casio are you kidding..... for this guy?

[Windreaper]

Actually, the new line of Casio digital pianos is rather good. Admittedly I've only played the cheapest, old PX100, but that felt and sounded entirely passable (not the best action, though).

[TheFoosa]

 

Originally posted by Outkaster A casio are you kidding..... for this guy?

 

 

 

Have you played them? They are quite nice. No Yammy grand but they've got an excellent feel, and if you use something besides the onboard speakers, the sounds inside are pretty good. It's not the real thing, but it's nicer and closer than stuff that costs twice as much.

[Outkaster]

 

Originally posted by TheFoosa Have you played them? They are quite nice. No Yammy grand but they've got an excellent feel, and if you use something besides the onboard speakers, the sounds inside are pretty good. It's not the real thing, but it's nicer and closer than stuff that costs twice as much.

 

 

Yeah but get a Yamaha for that price. The action is so much better.

[felix]

Yamaha P-250 perhaps? You really should play some and see which one fits you the best. It could be difficult to find really great action and a really great sound if you limit your choices to the sub-$1K range IMO.

[Rickideemus]

lakelanddude: The PX-400R actually only has dual element piano samples, yet some heavy duty classical pianists are nuts about it. I tried to go into Sams Club yesterday to try one, and found out you need a $42.50 membership just to shop there! So today I'm heading out to a Guitar Center that has a 555R -- basically the same KB.

 

$700 (or even $2-$300) seems a little outrageous for little metal weights, man! The extra 32 notes of poly couldn't cost 'em more than $10. I'm tellin' ya, they're juggling the price points.

 

Outkaster, I was looking over the P70, and it looks like the absolute minimum I could go with. No display or drive. 10 sounds. Built in speakers and only 28.7 lbs! Apparantly, Yamaha has innovated new speakers, since they're only 6 watts, yet they claim: "Yamahas integrated speaker system makes bulky powered speakers a thing of the past. The P Series uses highly efficient amplifiers that pack more sound into a lighter digital piano." Quite a statement! In fact, the upgrade to the P-120 -- the P-140 -- has only 6 watt speakers compared to 12.5 watts on the P-120s.

 

I'm really not THAT picky on the action -- when I said the DGX305 didn't quite cut it, I really meant not QUITE. It's close! I've played on all the worst pianos in town and learned to adapt.

 

Hey, listening to the sound clips on the P-250 and the DGX505, I came to the definite conclusion they put in a hell of a lot more work into the P-250 clips. Far, far more artistic talent in the P-250 clips. Yet, I'm not absolutely sure there's much difference in the sounds available. You guys don't think they'd deliberately steer people toward the high priced spread, do ya? Naaaaaaah

 

Thanks again all,

Rick

[Outkaster]

Originally posted by Rickideemus lakelanddude: The PX-400R actually only has dual element piano samples, yet some heavy duty classical pianists are nuts about it. I tried to go into Sams Club yesterday to try one, and found out you need a $42.50 membership just to shop there! So today I'm heading out to a Guitar Center that has a 555R -- basically the same KB. $700 (or even $2-$300) seems a little outrageous for little metal weights, man! The extra 32 notes of poly couldn't cost 'em more than $10. I'm tellin' ya, they're juggling the price points. Outkaster, I was looking over the P70, and it looks like the absolute minimum I could go with. No display or drive. 10 sounds. Built in speakers and only 28.7 lbs! Apparantly, Yamaha has innovated new speakers, since they're only 6 watts, yet they claim: "Yamahas integrated speaker system makes bulky powered speakers a thing of the past. The P Series uses highly efficient amplifiers that pack more sound into a lighter digital piano." Quite a statement! In fact, the upgrade to the P-120 -- the P-140 -- has only 6 watt speakers compared to 12.5 watts on the P-120s. I'm really not THAT picky on the action -- when I said the DGX305 didn't quite cut it, I really meant not QUITE. It's close! I've played on all the worst pianos in town and learned to adapt. Hey, listening to the sound clips on the P-250 and the DGX505, I came to the definite conclusion they put in a hell of a lot more work into the P-250 clips. Far, far more artistic talent in the P-250 clips. Yet, I'm not absolutely sure there's much difference in the sounds available. You guys don't think they'd deliberately steer people toward the high priced spread, do ya? Naaaaaaah Thanks again all, Rick

 

You should be picky about action. It is important and you do not want to do damage to your hands.

[Jazz+]

You owe it to yourself to check out the Kawai ES4. It trumps the Yamahas, Rolands, Kurzweils and Casios.

[TheFoosa]

 

Originally posted by Outkaster Yeah but get a Yamaha for that price. The action is so much better.

 

 

 

I never liked Yamaha's stage piano action. Grand pianos are yummy, but their stage pianos feel too heavy. Or maybe I've just played on some bad models.

[Rickideemus]

Thanks, Outkaster, for the advice. I certainly wouldn't want to damage my hands!

 

I'm not sure you guys realize just how bad the action is on MOST uprights (which really means spinets and consoles, since real 6 foot uprights are practically extinct) in the school system of a small town. I'm talking 30% of the notes with SOMEthing wrong with them. Missing pieces ... one note BLATing out twice as loud as the next ... notes so out of tune, you desparately try to miss them, or sub the octave below ... notes that play TWO notes ... After 30 years playing on those, a spring loaded digital is a big step up! The fact I won't settle for spring loaded means I AM picky, to my way of thinking.

 

I will definitely try out the ES4, if at all possible.

 

I spent about an hour and a half at the Guitar Center in Highland Park, IL. That is the place to look at keyboards! They have about 50 keyboards on display ranging up to $4,500 in three different rooms. The salesman was very courteous and turned down the sound from some other system so I could hear my doodlings.

 

I went back and forth between the Yamaha DGX505 and the Privia PX-555R. All the sounds on the 505 were better except for the pianos. The pianos were very acceptable on both machines. The only sound I liked slightly better on the 555R was the harpsichord.

 

The difference in sounds could be enough to sway me back to the Yammie despite its mediocre spring action. Every instrument I tried on the Yammie was better than I thought was even possible for an under $2K machine. Flute, sax, trumpet, even choir (almost) all would be immediately recognizable to a child. I can imagine a little girl saying "Mommy, that man has a saxophone player inside that box!"

 

Not so, on the Privia. The Privia gives you a wide pallette of sounds to choose from, and for layering, or even creating mini-orchestral effects, I suspect it is sufficient. But the tones seem flat, and if you play a flute solo, the little girl wouldn't know it was a flute. If she had to guess, she'd probably guess a flute over violin or drums. ;-) But you don't get the entertaining "Ooh-ahh that's a flute!" sensation. And entertainment is what we're all about, isn't it?

 

On all the Yammie breath instruments, there's an attack, vibrato, decay, and a slight increase in tone through the sustain part of the envelope, that tricks your subconscious into TAKING CREDIT for artfully shaping the phrases. ;-)

 

The strings on both were pretty ho-hum. I've never heard convincing strings on a keyboard. But even here, the Yammie was a little better.

 

The one thing I didn't try is adding some combinations of vibrato tremelo/reverb/whatever to the Privia instruments. The saleman couldn't find the manual. I also wanted to try piano layered with strings and a rhythm set, to see if I would be dropping notes all the time with that simple "live stage" combo. There was a layer button -- but neither one of us could figure out how to make it work.

 

I'll download the manual, study up, then return and try to rekindle my Privia passion.

 

I also preferred the method for changing sounds on the fly on the Yamaha. On the Privia, you have to push a sound button, then dial the wheel to get the exact sound number you want. On the Yamaha, you have the wheel option, but you also have a keypad, and you can just punch in the three digits. After a few weeks practice, I imagine you'd have all your favorite instruments memorized, and you could punch them in with your right hand without taking your eyes off the music. But again, I should study the Privia manual. Maybe I'm missing something. It's only maybe one or two seconds tougher on the Privia, but the music won't wait that long!

 

The speakers on both machines seemed to pump enough sound for my kind of music in a corner bar setting. I'm going for some quiet old-fashioned jazz. No need to "take over the room." In fact, it's nice when people can seek a quiet corner to converse.

 

The Yammie also sounded a lot better at GC than it did at another store. The grand piano didn't sound like it was locked in a closet any more. Acoustics -- go figure.

 

Even if they were the same price, I'd have to go with the Yammie. Bigger display (nice blue tint, and you get the whiz-bang staff scrolling thingie, though I'm sure it's not practical), more sounds, better sounds.

 

I was thinking if someone must have the hammer action, they might stick with a PX-310, since the additional sounds on the 400R/555R are so forgettable.

 

More on the action issue: MOST of the problems with action can be overcome with a few weeks practice on your personal KB. Repeated notes, nice chord balance, control in fast passages ... just a matter of adapting -- and the adaptation between a spring loaded Casio and a Steinway grand is LESS than the adaptation between an off brand spinet and the same Steinway.

 

The "graded" part of graded hammer action makes absolutely no difference to me. Clavinolas a few years ago had haamer action that was even through all the keys, and they were just superb. It should take about 10 seconds for a good pianist to notice and adjust to the "grading."

 

But there is one issue that remains, and that is the issue of leaps of over a tenth or so. When a pianist who was brought up on acoustics makes a big jump, he uses his arm muscles, of course, but when the fingers get there, they feel first -- then they play. It's maybe a tenth of a second, but in that tenth of a second, the fingers know from the black keys if they are off one note, and instantaneously adjust to hit the right note(s). Furthermore, if the fingers sense they are completely lost, they usually "adjust" by NOT PLAYING (better than a wrong note!). Hopefully, that doesn't happen too often.

 

Now on a spring loaded digital, like the DGX505, just feeling the note is enough to make it play. In fact, just the lateral motion of your arm is enough to make it play. If you try to feel, you sometimes wind up playing the note or chord twice. So, you quickly get in the habit of forming your fingers for playing instead of feeling and then you PRAY a lot.

 

But jumping that way means the lateral motion of your arm gets translated into downward force on the note(s). So every time I play on a spring loaded digital, you will hear sudden random BLATS. I practiced for weeks once on some kind of Yammie (I think it was a DGX300, not sure) and I COULD NOT get out of the habit of blaring out on jumps. I think it would literally take a year or more of practice to smooth out my jumps, and then I would be less equipped to play on an acoustic.

 

Now, to my poor addled brain, it seems like the solution is obvious. Just add enough torque to the springs so the keys don't move at all with light pressure! No, it wouldn't be exactly the same as weighted hammer action. No, an acoustic pianist wouldn't be immediately impressed. He might have to practice a few weeks to get comfortable. But it would be WORKABLE. And a musician brought up on digitals from childhood would have just as much speed and control as the best acoustic pianist.

 

Instead, they make the action on spring-loaded digitals the same as they made the action on electronic organs for 80 years. I've played on an Allen organ -- I can get around on it fine! But organs aren't velocity sensitive, and each manual is shorter than a piano. Fewer death defying leaps, and no rude BLAAAT when you get there.

 

Of course, as long as the spring-loaded's are unplayable, there's a market for pri$ey weighted hammer action. That couldn't be the object of not beefing up the torque 60% to 110% could it? Nooooooo ...

 

Anyhow, I guess I'm still lookin. Give me a DGX505 and add 80% to the spring tension -- I'd buy it in a heart beat. But I'm not up to prying it open, installing my own springs, and voiding the warranty.

 

New news! I learn now Yamaha is planning a weighted hammer upgrade to the DGX505 -- the YPG625. The only thing it lacks is the SmartMedia card slot. It comes in June. I will continue trying things out at GC, but I may wind up with a YPG625. I'm hoping it will have enough onboard memory that I won't miss the SM cards too much. I don't want to have to lug a laptop to all my gigs -- just one more thing to lose or get stolen.

 

Rick

[essGexx2000]

Whatever controller you choose, can play your DGX sounds with those shiny weighted new keys, (midi in 2 midi out) so keep it! Last night, I dualed the Grand Piano #1 equal with accoustic bass #41, and some chorus, dsp# 14 ...thundering lower register, and mix-cutting uppers! (amped with 2 12s, a 15, and several adjustacle horns and tweeters - not much thunder with the builtin speakers!)

 

Now go dual up #8 with #161, dsp #29 at about 70 on each layer, and tell me you ain't smilin!!!

[C. Martin]

I love my Yamaha P-250. IMO, the best stage/digital piano.

 

Chris

 

 

[glimmertwins]

Originally posted by ChrisM250 Yamaha P-250. IMO, the best stage/digital piano. Chris

 

I have only played the P-250 a few brief times in a music store - probably not enough to comment on, but I really like my Gem ProMega 3. It aint cheap(unless you find one on ebay like I did), but it sounds fantastic and feels much more like an interactive instrument than any other digital instrument I have played.

 

I know it doesn't really meet the criteria of the original poster, but if you truly have spent so much time playing real acoustic pianos, I would think the digital pianos aren't going to satisfy you unless you go for quality over a price point...of course your mileage may vary.

 

I lived with a baby grand for a few years and when I moved out I was going through serious withdraws so I went through several 88 key digital boards before settling on the GEM. I felt like I never really could compose on lesser digital pianos because they just didn't feel very expressive or interactive(especially compared to the GEM).

 

Anyway, best of luck in your gear search!

[Chiisu]

 

Originally posted by ChrisM250 I love my Yamaha P-250. IMO, the best stage/digital piano. Chris

 

 

Seconded. My P250 has a great feel to it and beautiful sounds.

[Khazul]

Have you thought of the GEM Promega series?

 

Personally I still think their pianos are the closest in sound and behaviour to a good accoustic.

 

There loads of others around that have a really good sample sets in them, but they all seem to be missing something from my breif dablings with those I've tried, and so I dont feel they are a really worthwhile step up from a really good rompler (for my purposes at least).

[midi]

Have you heard about the new Yamaha CP-300?

 

http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/cp300/index.html

[The Pro]

 

Originally posted by Jazz+ You owe it to yourself to check out the Kawai ES4. It trumps the Yamahas, Rolands, Kurzweils and Casios.

 

 

+1 every word.

[Bandard]

I was a classical guy too. The Yamaha keys are the closest to great action, IMO. Nothing like digging in up to your knuckles on a Beethoven Sonata! (Pathetique)

[Rickideemus]

I spent another two hrs at GC, and deepened my impression. I love all the sounds on the DGX505. About the best you could do, AFAICS for a performance synth. You don't have all the control, of course, of that CP300. Man, that looks cool! A little heavy though for me, pricewise and lbs. wise.

 

Figured out the reason I like the wind instruments so much better on the Yammie, compared to the Privia. The Privia 555R just has an attack and a decay. Two elements to the ADSR envelope -- which is all you need, really, on a piano! But, man, you miss the flattening of tone after an attack, followed by a warm "sustain" vibrato kicking in maybe half a second later.

 

Hey, Stan! I know every note of the Pathetique by heart. Welllll .. check that. I knew it all 10 years ago. ;-) I can still HEAR every note in my head. I could play it from memory day after tomorrow, if I had to. My dad played it almost every day while I was growing up.

 

He was also a very fine jazz pianist. He would combine jazz and classical. He had one arrangement where he started out with Rachmaninoff's C#m Etude, and make it sound like "Sunrise, Sunset" and then ... it WAS jazz. Magic. I'm planning to branch out into jazz with whatever kbd I wind up with.

 

Best,

Rick

[Bandard]

OK Ricki, If you know the Pathetique - Go to the store and play the second movement in Ab. NOW try to find action that will let you play the melody with you pinkie at a louder volume than the other keys LEGATO. And, listen to how the bass notes ring as they slowly fade away. AND listen to the harmonics of the soundboard as you use your pedal(especially high register). You may have to listen with headphones, because the guy next to you working out beats could give a {censored} that you actually have money spend.

 

Yamaha P-90 or better kills anything else (I don't know the kawai keyboards, so I can't speak for them)

[Rickideemus]

Thanks for the advice, Stan. I will do as you suggest. Actually, I played the 2cnd movement once on a Clavinola -- at church as an offertory. I don't remember for sure, but I probably cut it up some. Guts, eh? I read somewhere that Beethoven did stuff like that all the time.

 

The Clavinola was wonderful, and even the DGX505 is warm and nice. The legato in the melody is a challenge with the spring loaded action, but the wrinkles would smooth out with a little practice, I'm sure. I don't rely on just my pinkie, though. ;-) Try not to rely on the pedal either. Make your fingers do the work, is my motto.

 

Best,

Rick

[Jazz+]

I was a "classical guy" for 20 years and the Yamaha keys are not like a Steinway action. The Yamaha keys have 72 grams of sustained downweight resistance all the way to the very bottom of the keybed. That is not the way it is on a good piano. The P series has no piano "aftertouch." Only the Kawai MP8, with its solid wood keys, has aftertouch (not to be confused with MIDI aftertouch). The aftertouch is the bump of resistance a little way between the top of the key and the keybed. After the hammer is thrown from the jack the key resistance becomes much less as the stroke follows thru to the keybed.

[eric]

 

Originally posted by Jazz+ You owe it to yourself to check out the Kawai ES4. It trumps the Yamahas, Rolands, Kurzweils and Casios.

 

 

How does the ES4 sound in mono?