Simple improvisation question

[venusshore]

Hello~

 

I want to try to improvise on a G song:

 

Chord: G, B, C, Cmin

 

I try to play G major scale on first chord "G",

B major scale on second chord "B",

G major scale on third chord "C",

C Minor scale on last chord "Cmin",

 

But it seems not sound good. Any suggestion which scale I should play on each chord?

 

Thanks,

[1001gear]

Stay on Gmajor scale for now. Avoid E natural on the C minor. This may have more palatable results but you may still find the results underwhelming. Learning to improvise is like learning a language, won't happen with a simple travel guide.

[eflatminor]

Until you get to the point where you can play THROUGH each chord vs scales, I would try playing E minor scale over the G and B, then switch to G major for the C and Cm chords. Switching from the major to relative minor will help make a more interesting feel. Play no E on that Cm chord!

[JonR]

I just answered this question over on emusictheory, but I meant to ask what the song is? It's a familiar sequence, I know I've heard/played it before. (And I'll kick myself when I find out what it is...)

 

But while I'm here, see if this chart helps (supports my other answer):

 

G MAJOR SCALE:  G  .  A  .  B  C  .  D  .  E  .  F# G     G CHORD:  G           B        D              G                           |          \           /     B CHORD:              B           D#       F#                             \           \        \     C CHORD:  G              C           E        G               |              |          /         |    Cm CHORD:  G              C        Eb          G

 

 

 

[JonR]

Damn, I can't understand how to edit previous posts....

(sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't...)

 

Anyway... the above chart shows the chord sequence running downwards, showing (a) how the notes in each chord line up with the major scale above (some do, a couple don't) and (b) how the chord tones change from chord to chord.

 

When improvising, you'd begin with the chord tones - starting and ending phrases on one of those 3 notes - and you can use any of the other scale notes as passing (filler( notes.

 

What's missing from the above chart is the change from Cm back to G, so here's the complete one:

 

G MAJOR SCALE:  G  .  A  .  B  C  .  D  .  E  .  F# G     G CHORD:  G           B        D              G                           |          \           /     B CHORD:              B           D#       F#                             \           \        \     C CHORD:  G              C           E        G               |              |          /         |    Cm CHORD:  G              C        Eb          G               |             /        /            |   (G CHORD):  G           B        D              G

All that half-step "voice-leading" shows what a cool sequence this is.

 

[JonR]

By the way, it doesn't matter that a couple of chord tones (D#, Eb) don't belong to the G major scale. Just go with the notes in the chords, and use the leftover notes from the scale as filler.

(There are other more sophisticated improvisation strategies, but this is a simple one that always works.)

[1001gear]

I like that chart. Very logical.

[venusshore]

~Hi All, thanks for answering!

@JonR, thanks for great answer. This is what I am looking for.

For the chord like this, I will always improvise with G major scale (since it's in G key), however, as @1001gear said, it's underwhelming.

I want to add more nodes. That's why I was looking for which scale I can play on each chord.

As you mentioned, Gmajor scale -> E harmonic minor -> G major -> G harmonic major is the scale I can use for.

Also the the chart is very clear, it's shows the composition motivation as well.

What I want to ask is, how can I practice to quickly familiar with scale such as "E harmonic minor" on fretboard?

I am very familiar with C major scale, and it's very easy to change to G major, (just move up 5 frets).

However, if I want to play E harmonic minor scale on all different place on fretboard, it take time to learn. And there are many other scales.

Thanks!

PS. the song is creep by radiohead

 

[1001gear]

Ha, I had been playing Bmi per Gmajor . When I tried BMaj per actually reading the thread, I had the same JonR experience. Not an RH fan but the tune is a Karaoke staple lol.

Back to the two cents, try quarter note / half note (one note per beat) melodies to set some kind of structure and possibly vibe in your head. Even plain arpeggios for starters will help stimulate a melodic yearning.

[JonR]

~Hi All, thanks for answering!

@JonR, thanks for great answer. This is what I am looking for.

For the chord like this, I will always improvise with G major scale (since it's in G key), however, as @1001gear said, it's underwhelming.

 

Well, G major simply won't work for all the chords - unless you avoid the note D#/Eb when the B and Cm chords turn up, which means you're missing the most interesting aspects of this sequence. That's probably one reason why that approach is "underwhelming".

I want to add more nodes.

Notes? or modes?

I can understand that a diatonic scale has its limitations. Great soloists can play great solos using very simple material, but the less gifted among us like to draw on additional material... (I know I do )

 

So yes - looking to add more NOTES is fine and good (within reason). Looking to add MODES may not be relevant.

 

But before thinking about more notes, think about other aspects of soloing: rhythm, dynamics, tone, etc etc. All those things can make a simple set of notes come alive.

That's why I was looking for which scale I can play on each chord.

As you mentioned, Gmajor scale -> E harmonic minor -> G major -> G harmonic major is the scale I can use for.

Yes, but that's only if you find thinking in scales helpful. I don't. I think in chord tones, and then adding diatonic or chromatic notes in passing.

That means I always have all 12 notes at my disposal, while still being true to the chords, and to the key where relevant.

Modes are not part of my thinking, unless I'm playing modal music. Which this - apparently - isn't.

Even scales are not in forefront of my mind.

Of course I know all my scales, but they play as little part in my thinking when I solo as the alphabet does when I speak...

Also the the chart is very clear, it's shows the composition motivation as well.

What I want to ask is, how can I practice to quickly familiar with scale such as "E harmonic minor" on fretboard?

Take your G major scale patterns and raise all the D's to D#. I hope you know where all the D's are...

I am very familiar with C major scale, and it's very easy to change to G major, (just move up 5 frets).

You mean down 5 frets. Towards the nut is down; towards the bridge is up.

In any case, that's a very bad way to change scales. Much better to stay in the same position and just alter the notes you need to change. You do know major scale patterns all over the neck, yes? So just stay in the same place and switch to the appropriate pattern in that position. You'll notice when changing from C major to G major that only one note in the pattern changes (F goes up to F#).

However, if I want to play E harmonic minor scale on all different place on fretboard, it take time to learn. And there are many other scales.

Yes, and yes!

 

But as I was saying, stop thinking in scales, and think in chords.

 

This does mean you need to know alternative shapes for every chord in every neck position, but this is much more useful than knowing scales all over the neck.

 

Play shapes for each chord in the same neck position (within 3 frets of each other). Notice the minimal changes. When soloing on one chord, start from the chord shape; don't ask what scale might fit - you don't need to know. Use the notes in the shape as your starting and ending points.

Obviously, you'll want more notes than that! So add notes from the next or previous chord. Use those in between the notes in the chord shape.

If that's not enough, add notes from any other chords in the sequence.

If that's still not enough, just use any other in between notes. It doesn't matter. Your ear will tell you if any note is "wrong", and a wrong note is easily made right by resolving to the nearest chord tone (note in the chord shape).

 

It might sound like I'm arguing for ignorance, and proposing a limited view. The opposite is the case. This method (a) always sounds right, because you're working from the chords, and (b) puts all 12 notes into the pool, in a sensible (musical) hierarchy, as follows:

1. chord tones (on current chord) best - always "inside";

2. other diatonic notes (notes in other chords) good - safe passing notes;

3. all other notes (probably chromatic), dissonant, but good (bluesy/jazzy).

 

Learn your chords.. Forget scales. And especially - forget modes.

PS. the song is creep by radiohead

Aaaaagh! I knew that, I knew that...

 

Have you listened to what they play on it? Have you copied the vocal melody? That's where you should start with any song you want to improvise on:

 

1. Learn to play any melodic material in the composition - lead vocal, riffs, etc.

2. Learn the chord progression, and be able to play it in all neck positions.

3. If there's a solo on the original, study it. Don't attempt to copy it note for note, unless it's a truly iconic solo (ie effectively part of the composition). What you need to know is why those notes were chosen. The answer is not in the scales; the answer is in the chords.

(Unless it's a plain and simple blues, of course, in which case the scale - blues scale/minor pent - is probably the thing; although it would be very unusual for a soloist not to refer to the chords in some way.)

Phrase shape matters too, of course - that's a matter of rhythm and timing, as well as note choice, but it still springs from the chords.

 

IOW, begin with the material the song gives you. Don't try to guess what scales or modes might apply. Don't try to apply some kind of theory you might have read about on the internet. Everything is there in the song: all the notes you need.

If you want more notes, add more, but there's no theory you need to apply in order to choose those extra notes. All you need to know is the difference between "inside" and "outside".

"Inside" = consonant with the chord = chord tones, plus any note that can be held or stressed over the chord without needing to move (including "sweet" tensions);

"Outside" = dissonant with the chord = any note that sounds wrong when held against the chord (uncomfortable tensions), but is OK in between any two inside notes, and is also OK if resolved to a chord tone.

Thinking scales and modes will only limit your choices in unhelpful ways. (Some limitation is GOOD. All creative art is about working within limits. But modes offer arbitrary and irrelevant limits.)

 

"Creep" is - in fact - an interesting song to stretch out on, because the chords change quite slowly - every 2 bars. That does indeed make it tempting to consider each chord as an isolated modal entity, rather than part of a key-based progression. IOW, instead of relating to a G key centre, each chord being its own key (mode) centre.

However, you already tried that and it sounded wrong, yes? That's despite the fact that the modes you chose were quite suitable for each particular chord.

So that can only be because your ear detected (or was expecting) that the chords all related to a key (G).

IOW, there is no theoretical reason why a modal approach shouldn't work. But your ear is telling you it doesn't. And your ear is always right. (A differently experienced ear might make a different judgement, and be perfectly happy with a new scale for each chord. But yours isn't, and yours is the one that counts!)

Your ear - like mine, btw - is picking up (subconsciously) on logical musical connections between the chords. You've heard changes like that before. Even though G and B major chords don't belong in the same major key, they do both belong in E minor. Cm doesn't strictly belong in either key, but it's a very common and traditional chromatic passing chord in key of G between C and G. (And Cm and G are both found in key of C minor.) So - again - whether you're aware of it or not, you've heard that kind of change before, and you've heard it in key-based progressions where the chords all relate to one key centre.

So that's why your ear is telling you that your artificial separation of the chords into 4 different modes is "wrong". It contradicts your aural experience. You're imposing a theoretical concept where it doesn't belong.

 

Still - those extended chords DO make it tempting to think scalewise. And in that light, I'd offer an alternative to G harmonic major on the Cm chord. G harmonic major is an unusual (and therefore cool) scale, but C melodic minor would sound more "normal". The difference is just one note: F instead of F#.

But the pragmatic chord tone principle can still apply.

Look at the Cm chord shape. What note would make sense in between the Eb and G? Something midway, surely? That means F, not F#. The other inbetween notes can still come from neighbouring chords - ie D between C and Eb, and B between G and C. Between G and B? Again, A is the obvious choice. You could choose Bb instead of B, but the presence of B in both the G and B chords will probably make Bb on the Cm sound wrong. (It might not - but let your ear tell you. )

 

Phew - sorry there's so much to read there. Take your time...

[venusshore]

Hi JonR

 

Thanks for this detailed response. I learned a lot.

 

Actually when I improvise myself I never care about scale etc. , I just follow my thinking of which note should be next.

 

Now I just want to write better music, that's why I want to study the music theory again.

 

I'll take your suggesion and try to study the chord shape/progression and practice. Any suggest book on this?

 

Thanks,

[JonR]

Hi JonR

 

Thanks for this detailed response. I learned a lot.

 

Actually when I improvise myself I never care about scale etc. , I just follow my thinking of which note should be next.

Good plan. Your "thinking" is probably governed by your ear, in that sense, which is as it should be.

If you cared about scales - or even about chords - you might be thinking too much about theory. As it is, you've probably been playing (and listening to music) for long enough to have a good idea of what will sound right when, even if you're not conscious of it.

Your ear needs no theoretical justification for its judgements.

Now I just want to write better music, that's why I want to study the music theory again.

Understood. In composition, the ear still rules - it's the final judge - but theory can often offer useful guidance, or tips for shortcuts on how to get familiar sounds.

It can certainly help with harmonisation. Eg, a melody is best written totally by ear - just following what seems to be an aural logic - but adding chords by ear is a lot more complicated. It can still be done, but quite often chords only need to support the melody in an efficient way, and stock sequences (following tried-and-tested harmonic practices) will often do the job, even for a very original melody. At least they give you a good basis to work from, if you want to try more unusual changes.

 

Eg, Radiohead probably didn't get the sequence for "Creep" from a beginner theory book. There is a good sound theoretical logic behind each change, which probably comes from awareness of more advanced theory (they're an educated bunch), but of course there's also the musical common sense to know how to reduce it down to what works for the particular context.

BTW, the use of the minor IV chord is almost a Radiohead signature. They also used Cm in key of G in "My Iron Lung", and Bbm in key of F in "No Surprises" - always for the same sense of slightly disturbing mystery it evokes.

But they're not unique in that. The Beatles were also very fond of minor IV chords, to add just a little depth to their otherwise mostly upbeat songs.

 

I'll take your suggesion and try to study the chord shape/progression and practice. Any suggest book on this?

 

Thanks,

There's two issues here: technique, and theory.

Technique - in this case - is simply about learning the fretboard. I can't advise you on books on that - I taught myself, many years ago - but I'm sure there are many out there. I'm biased, but I think teaching yourself is the best way. You don't need a book. Print out a blank fretboard plan, and fill notes in as you work them out. Plot out chord shapes, see what notes they contain. Play stuff to check (by ear). If you do it yourself, you don't forget it.

 

For theory - at least to help with composition - I would just study songbooks. Pick songs (or composers) you like, and look at how they do it. Listen out for unusual changes, and check how they work in context.

If it's improvisation, then the process is similar: listen to whoever you admire, and analyse what they're doing. That can be tough, to get all the detail, but you can start with just vague ideas about rhythm and phrase shapes. (Use software to slowdown and/or loop as necessary.)

 

But a little awareness of the basics of conventional theory will certainly help! A real concise summary is this little book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/First-Steps-Music-Theory-Grades/dp/1860960901

It's based on the UK grades 1-5, and is classically biased, summarising all the things you need to know if you're taking those grades.

It's the stuff I started on and it's done me no harm . (I never took any grades myself, btw, I was just curious...) Otherwise, my main learning came from reading songbooks - the theory was only ever a sideline, a backup.

The pink "AB Guide" on the same page is the same info in more detail, arranged more according to topic than grade level. The "First Steps" may be a little short on in-depth explanation, but of course there's plenty of (free) ways you can ask for clarification on anything necessary.

 

If you want something more guitar-friendly, try this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/LEONARD-GUITAR-METHOD-MUSIC-THEORY/dp/063406651X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398243652&sr=1-1&keywords=music+theory+tom+kolb

In fact, buying both would be an even better plan.

 

 

[venusshore]

Thanks for the recommendations @JonR. I'll look into these books.

[onelife]

I would suggest playing melodically while keeping in mind the different notes in the chords.

 

I would not avoid the notes that don't line up with the G Major scale and the specific chord - I would specifically target the notes that change with the chords.

 

For example, G has a D natural in it B has a D# so the improvised melody can highlight that change. The G note can also drop down to F# when it goes to the B chord. The C to Cm switch can be highlighted by moving from the E to an Eb.

 

Listen to the lead guitar lines at the end of "Sexy Sadie" from The Beatles White Album - particularly where the chord changes from G Major to F# Major.

 

[JonR]

I would suggest playing melodically while keeping in mind the different notes in the chords.

 

I would not avoid the notes that don't line up with the G Major scale and the specific chord - I would specifically target the notes that change with the chords.

 

For example, G has a D natural in it B has a D# so the improvised melody can highlight that change. The G note can also drop down to F# when it goes to the B chord. The C to Cm switch can be highlighted by moving from the E to an Eb.

 

Good advice, totally agreed. I did say much the same thing, but somehow I took a whole lot longer...

 

 

[RifferDave]

A scale can be a road map to help you navigate the fretboard, but think about the word; improvisation for a moment. Ad lib, off the cuff, fly by the seat of your pants. Try to think less about what scale(s) work over what chord(s), and more about what you "hear". Generally speaking, place your hand on the fretboard with your first finger on the 3rd fret, note isn't important at the moment. Now look at your hand spread with one finger per fret, i.e. G, G#, A, A#. Every note within that four fret span, starting on 6th string G, on every string to the 1st is technically a playable note. Granted, playing it this way will be somewhat chromatic, but the idea is play with the song or chords until you find notes that work. If you know the G scale for example, starting at the 3rd fret 6th, try adding/subtracting notes as you play. You will start to hear what works and what "may" not. Remember, a bad note can be used as a passing tone, a flourish, that may end up sounding "bluesy". "If you make a mistake, play it again. People will think you meant to do it". Larry Carlton, Mr. 335, jazz/fusion guitarist, Guitar Player interview excerpt circa mid-late '70's.