Got A Song On A Microsoft Commercial...Now What?

BlueStrat · December 21, 2006

we have signed away NOTHING. we own the song and the publishing rights. all they can do is use it in this one commercial for 1 year.

For the second time:

Signing away royalty rights is not the same as signing away ownership. Yeah, you can still own it, but if you signed something that said the promotional value is payment, then they get to use your tune without paying you for it. It doesn't mean you don't own it. It just means you signed away the value to it. Do you not see the difference? You can't even use someone else's tune played by your cover band (legally anyway) as a demo on the web without paying for it. Why would you think a commercial should be able to air your song without you getting paid? I can't believe this wouldn't cross your mind when signing a contract.

either way, we're really not in the "music biz" to make money,

That's great, but other people are, and everytime some band or musician comes along and gives themselves away for free, it devalues the market for everyone. My area is full of guys like this: weekend warriors with good jobs who will play for peanuts because "we don't need the money, and we aren't going to get ricjh anyway",and original bands who will play for little to free thinking it's going to get them somewhere later.

If you're not looking to make money, why l even bother with promo, or getting a commercial, or making records? And why do you care about how you can exploit this commercial for further success, if you aren't in it to make money? I know I'm not going to get rich off this, but I am out to make every dollar I can with music, especialy from people who think they are entitled to it for free.

These guys are using your song in part to sell something that is going to earn them a profit. The fact that you might benefit from this doesn't relieve them of the obligation to pay you for it. If you got paid up front, then okay. You didn't say that initially. I hope you got at least a few grand or so.

I know money doesn't drive most musicians, but it ought to be a major consideration. How else are you going to judge your success and how much value your work has if it's not by how much others are willing to pay you for it? Anyone can draw a crowd if you give your stuf away for free. But getting paid for what you do is another matter, and tells you whether you're any good or not.

Not to rag on you, but like it or not, it is the MUSIC BUSINESS. I know, because I did the same thing: I spent 35 years learning to play music and about 30 minutes learning the business, and I had to go back and take a crash course when I started to make and sell records, play concerts, work with agents, get songs used in magazine CD inserts, etc etc.

Like della rose said, you prolly aren't going to lose anything, but you likely could have made more off it. I'm happy for you that you got the opportunity. I hope you learn from this and take steps to be ready for the next opportunity.

TheLuxLife · December 24, 2006

I saw the commercial today...cool stuff guys. I hope you use the exposure to your benefit.

-J.P. LUX

MartinC · December 27, 2006

A`band I was in sold some music to Budwiser for latin american radio commercials. they paid us a flat fee to use three songs in commercials-no peformance royalty which was ok because how were we going to know how many times it would play in freakin mexico? But, here's the thing-they paid us 25k and that was in 1990. I have no idea if the music was ever even used.

So, Microsoft in 2006, a US national commercial should be worth much much more, and I agree with Blue Strat that if you gave that away, you are not only hurting other musicians, you may have blown the best opportunity your group may ever have to make some money. That group I was in never saw a check anything like that again. You could surely benefit from a good pr person if you can afford one, but if you really aren't looking for money, you may not want to pay the 2k a month or more such a person would charge. To parlay your good fortune into something more will likely take a major effort, but at least you do have that opportunity. Best of luck to you.

BassJenn · December 27, 2006

Completely unrelated to money and contracts and such...
try to make sure that sites like http://www.songtitle.info/ have the information about your song. I know a lot of people who go to these types of sites if they like a song listed on a commercial. I did a google search for "songs in commercials" (not in quotes) and came up with a few.

Good luck!

Jebus0000 · December 27, 2006

Originally posted by BassJenn

Completely unrelated to money and contracts and such...

try to make sure that sites like

http://www.songtitle.info/
have the information about your song. I know a lot of people who go to these types of sites if they like a song listed on a commercial. I did a google search for "songs in commercials" (not in quotes) and came up with a few.

Good luck!

+1

Make sure the info is out there that it's YOUR song that's in that commercial so that any idiot who likes the song can find out who plays it. (btw, I'm not suggesting that only an idiot would like that song )

I pretended I was such a person... the first thing I searched was "Zune commercial share" and got the info from the 1st result. So that's good.

robertt8 · January 4, 2007

good points guys...

and no, i don't believe that the contract said anything about royalties, so i guess if thats one of those things that has to be in the contract, then i''m guessing that we won't get them. we DID get paid, and our lawyer (entertainment laywer that is a friend) reviewed the contract more for things that might screw us over. as opposed to making us rich. at the time, we had NO idea that this commercial would be played nearly as much as it has. i think the band kind of figured (we didn't really bring it up to the lawyer) that royalties were something that was paid by the play and wasn't something that had to be in the contract.

I'm guessing it's totally different, but who pays the royalties for everytime a song comes on the radio? I'm also assuming that there is no contract for each song played.

Either way, yeah, maybe we got screwed out of some coin, but it's a good learning experience for us. We might have been better prepared for this if we actually got our contract in on time. It's a long story, but the contract was supposed to be turned in on Friday and we were out of town at a gig. we didn't get back until Saturday afternoon to see that we were a day late and figured we'd be dropped for some back up song...so we'd pretty much signed the thing and sent it in after seeing that we weren't giving away the song and got paid...all that stuff. i think we just figured that if there were royalties to be collected, that just kind of came with having something on the air.

anyhoo, we'll hopefully get our {censored} straight next time (if there is one). either way, we've gotten some good pr through that and a nice little check.

germanicus2112 · January 5, 2007

Based on whats been said, I recommend you get an entertainment lawyer who practices entertainment law.

Also, its likely you could license the song to other commercial entities.

The Byre · January 9, 2007

Robert

Firstly, you (and not your lawyer) need to understand what is going on. Have a read through the website www.bemuso.com for a UK slant on things and also get a copy of All You Need to Know About the music Business by D Passman. That book is geared to the US and is a good read. I recopmmend it to everybody who needs a grounding in how this business works.

Secondly, you need to take the next step. From what I can see, that would be to hook up with a professional management company. That TV-ad will make a nice calling card, though in this day and age, you will need much more and if you are a gigging rock band, your fan-base is your biggest asset.

Your website is good and you guys seem to already have a healthy fan base, so you are all set. Keep on truckin' is all I can say!

TheLuxLife · January 9, 2007

Just wanted to say...

Tell microsoft to STOP playing it :mad: - J/K

I hear it all the time and can't get it outta my head!!!!

Congrats again guys!

-J.P. LUX

Skoora · January 24, 2007

What you can learn from this is EVERYTHING needs to be in the contract. The buyer/licenser is not bound by law to do anything but what's in the contract.

Like Samuel jackson said...
"You made an assumption. And we all know what happens when you make an assumption. You make an ass out of you....and umption"

strat0tele · January 26, 2007

either way, we're really not in the "music biz" to make money,

That's great, but other people are, and everytime some band or musician comes along and gives themselves away for free, it devalues the market for everyone. My area is full of guys like this: weekend warriors with good jobs who will play for peanuts because "we don't need the money, and we aren't going to get ricjh anyway",and original bands who will play for little to free thinking it's going to get them somewhere later.

Times change. Business models that were once highly profitable are not anymore. That's the way it is. You can't whine about people giving away free music devaluing the market, just as I don't think software developers should whine about free software doing similar. It's part of the business. You have to evolve.

MartinC · January 27, 2007

Times change. Business models that were once highly profitable are not anymore. That's the way it is. You can't whine about people giving away free music devaluing the market, just as I don't think software developers should whine about free software doing similar. It's part of the business. You have to evolve.

Evolve? You mean DEVOLVE! Any band that can produce a piece of music that microsoft wants to use to enhance it's multi billion dollar image deserves a piece of the pie! There will always be low ballers in every industry. What makes the music business even worse than most is the amount of people who are happy to perform for free and the number of music buyers who can't tell the difference between pros and posers. Saying that that's the way it is is a defeatest point of view IMO. The fact is that the best players/producers in any market don't work for free. Guys who produce music that is regularly used commercially get paid good money. People pay for good software too, and those folks who produce good software should charge. Intuit charges me over 400.00 a year to keep Quickbooks up to date, and for what that software does for my business, I'm willing to pay it. Working thousands of hours to produce professional product then deciding to give it away doesn't sound like business to me, but that's simply my opinion. I do understand the idea of giving away, for example, a browser to generate users which lead directly to advertising revenues, but that model is not in play in most situations. I think that a lot of give aways are ego driven, to the detriment of people who are trying to get value for their work.

Swingfinger · January 27, 2007

I Was listening to that song in the commercial and thinking its kind of a catchy little toon. Thats really cool man. Zune still sucks though... up with the Zen!

roabre999 · January 28, 2007

God I hate that {censored}ing song!

lol kidding, congrats, good luck

Blackwatch · January 28, 2007

imes change. Business models that were once highly profitable are not anymore. That's the way it is. You can't whine about people giving away free music devaluing the market, just as I don't think software developers should whine about free software doing similar. It's part of the business. You have to evolve.

I just heard " The Low Spark of High Heeled Boys" today on the radio.

And the line" the man in the suit has just bought a new car with the profit he made on you dreams" comes to mind. So these record guys should be the only ones making money? Does your creative effort come so cheaply? This all reflects on a society where art is so lowly valued, and for some reason alot of the younger musicians have bought into it. It's aready been argued to death here but if musicians aren't fairly compensated, they won't be able to do music full time and they cannot grow into the type of musicians that produce fully developed music. IMO

cryptozoon · February 5, 2007

A fair price for a one-time license for a non-hit song from a no name is: whatever the artist is offered, or whatever your agent can negotiate without alienating the interested party. If the song has extended uses, other offers will follow. That's how you make money on licensing.

Songs –or anything for that matter– do not have any value until there is a market for them. You need to create a market. Like anything else, one accomplishes that by selling below cost and undercutting any potential competitors, which allows you to gain traction, publicity and some leverage on subsequent deals and transactions.

If a big agency knocks on your bedroom door and wants to use your song on a commercial that will increase your exposure, and which will also give you a platform to further market yourself –and if you are currently an unknown– don't mess it up by listening to a 'pal' who says your genius is worth more than what the offer is.

I can't tell you how strange it is to me that an unknown artist will give away their entire catalog on the Internet, but then claim it has extraordinary economic value the first time someone expresses interest in licensing a tune.

The prudent thing to do is to go with a reasonable* license for the present, and if the song is as catchy as your mother thinks it is, then other offers will follow (which is where you'll negotiate an ever escalating rate for your material, because now you have value).

*Reasonable means: Non exclusive use or limited exclusivity, for a limited time, in limited media; such as, 12 months for a designated TV/Radio/Internet Campaign, with an option to renew at the same rate, or a rate to be negotiated in good faith.

So first you practically give away a song. Then someone in Japan wants to use it on a foreign commercial. Then the song gets picked up for an independent film. Then a Hollywood blockbuster uses it over the end credits. Then Proctor & Gamble want to use it as the theme for a new detergent. Then CBS is using it to promote their entire Fall season. Now the offers are flooding in.

With each use, you negotiate a higher rate. The same song you licensed now for a few hundred dollars might increase in value a hundred fold over the years.

robertt8 · February 7, 2007

whoa...

i just popped in here (been a while) and i see this ones's still popping up now and then.

yeah, we got a flat fee for it. we probably would have made more if we knew what the hell we were doing and we weren't rushed, but {censored} it. we're pretty happy with the one time pay check, the exposure and the fact that next time (if there is) we're going to know our options.

so it's all cool by us.

chepresant · February 7, 2007

I am unable to understand your band receiving a contract from Microsoft that was only one page long. Microsoft does not do anything legal that is only one page long. Song contracts are usually much more involved and state the publishing percentage and the songwriter's percentage. Royalties are also detailed in the contract, as well as performance right percentages and commercial use percentages. What did your contract state? If it is only one page, it must be very simple and forward regarding the monetary splits. Give me some more info on the wording of your agreement, specifically what it entailed, and then I can respond. I have been dealing with song contracts for a long time, and you just have to watch your back. A shark can sense a seal in the water. I like your tune, and I hope you have not tied up your song for the next year in this simple one page contract you signed.

Check out some of my bands tunes at: http://www.myspace.com/paxvoxband

chepresant · February 7, 2007

whoa...

i just popped in here (been a while) and i see this ones's still popping up now and then.

yeah, we got a flat fee for it. we probably would have made more if we knew what the hell we were doing and we weren't rushed, but {censored} it. we're pretty happy with the one time pay check, the exposure and the fact that next time (if there is) we're going to know our options.

so it's all cool by us.

So you received a flat fee for the use of your tune? How much did they pay you? What did they think your song use, for one year was worth? Just curious. It sounds like Microsoft got the upper hand on this situation, and they tied up your tune to boot. Well..you did get exposure...but how much has Microsoft made from using your tune to push their product? Too bad you don't have a percentage stake in the overall take.

robertt8 · February 7, 2007

So you received a flat fee for the use of your tune? How much did they pay you? What did they think your song use, for one year was worth? Just curious. It sounds like Microsoft got the upper hand on this situation, and they tied up your tune to boot. Well..you did get exposure...but how much has Microsoft made from using your tune to push their product? Too bad you don't have a percentage stake in the overall take.

i could be wrong, but i feel like i've mentioned this several times in this thread... Microsoft did not make or have anything to do with our contract. it was the company that developed the commercial.

As for what we got paid, it was good enough for us not to be all that worried about it, and from something i was just reading, it sounds like we really didn't do that bad. the commercial ran like crazy for the first week or two before xmas, then seemed to be stuck on channels like MTV, ADULT SWIM, VH1 and seems to have tapered off quite a bit. in hind sight, i think we did just fine.

And the only thing we can't use the song for (like it would really happen) are commercials advertising anything to do with file sharing or music players. that is all. we could use that same song in a Hallmark commercial without any repercussions if we want.

Flannery · February 7, 2007

In economics there is a model that is used to describe market behavior called perfect competition. Perfect competition is characterized by a few specifics:

1) many firms selling a homogenous product (as in many, many bands selling music) which means they cannot set prices.....they are a price taker. In this case consumer demand sets prices.

2) free cost of entry and exit in the market. While not totally cost free, the costs associated with being in a band and recording are not so excessive that bands aren't folding or constantly being created . Compare this with the start up costs of a company that wants to produce engine blocks and you should see what I mean.

3) This means that there is a near endless supply of product (re: musicians flogging their songs) and constant turnover of firms (bands) that are desperate to carve out their niche.

4) So where in this description of how the market behaves is their any room to play hardball with a potential buyer? Your product is worth exactly what they are willing to pay. If you aren't happy with the price and want more, they consumer be more than happy to tell you to get stuffed and go elsewhere to find what they want.

5) Just because you value the product more highly than the consumer does not mean this intrinsic value you place on it will be reflected in the price you are offered in the market.

This might sound a little harsh, but it is knieve to think that just because a company has deep pockets, they are going to pay you any more than what the market declares it is worth.

So while all the advice on this thread on how to get a higher price is well intentioned. I don't think the realities of the market would have allowed robertt8 to get any more than he did for the use of the song.

BlueStrat · February 7, 2007