Members smartinez1984 Posted March 25, 2004 Members Share Posted March 25, 2004 I believe that's the best way to refer to the art of hitting the drums softer or harder, true? Anyway, so how do you go about teaching a young drummer that playing drums is not all about hitting the drums as hard as you can? I'm not the actual drummer here; my son plays drums for our praise & worship team. He's only been playing for a little under a year, has tremendous talent, and will probably discover all this a few years down the road. But, I'm interested in teaching him or having someone teach him about the importance of this during his early learning process. Can anyone point me to a website, book, video, etc. that discussing the specifics of this? Thanks! -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted March 25, 2004 Members Share Posted March 25, 2004 I'd look for some instructional videos from some of the top end jazz guys. Watch and learn. I read somewhere that Steve Smith (I think it was him) has been doing this thing at his clinics where he just walks out with a snare drum and some brushes and proceeds to drop every jaw in the house. The one I read about was at the Modern Drummer festival, and he did it after a bunch of other louder guys played. I'd look for stuff like that. Even if the kid has little or no interest in that type of music, it comes down to 'can you do it or can't you'. Odds are, it'll at the very least show him that there's a whole lot more to drumming than breaking eardrums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 25, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 25, 2004 Thanks! I actually found a very informative site: http://www.tigerbill.com/features/da010102.htm Scrolling down the right you'll find links to related instructionals, very cool, I think. I presume you are a drummer, can you comment on the information therein? Thanks! -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted March 25, 2004 Members Share Posted March 25, 2004 I checked the site out and it does a good job of explaining everything and gives some good tips, IMHO. The problem is, however, that it just a whole helluva lot of fun to bash the daylights out of a drumkit. So while the advice they give is spot on, the REAL sales pitch you have to master is convincing a young drummer that playing with dynamics can be fun. Not sure how you can accomplish this, but the site you posted is probably a good starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MightyBricklayer Posted March 25, 2004 Members Share Posted March 25, 2004 i'd say the best way to show a young drummer the possibilities that can be acheived from behind a drumkit is simple- show him. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040325114850024131000133570565/g=home/search/detail/base_id/76436 it's $30, but sit the young'n down on the couch and let him see buddy rich himself ripping it apeart. rather than explain dynamics (or why he needs to learn the rudiments, or study timekeeping, ect ect...), let him actually see the best of the best. I didn't start really working on becoming an artist behind the kit until i'd seen this kind of material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 25, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 25, 2004 Wow! Looks like (and I'm certain it sounds like) a worthwhile investment! Thanks for the info! -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moosryan Posted March 26, 2004 Members Share Posted March 26, 2004 definitely go with the weckl videos: back to basics and the next step Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rca Posted March 26, 2004 Members Share Posted March 26, 2004 Not sure what exactly you are referring to. Want to make some points: 1) If you mean a variation in dynamics during a song, amplification has taken dynamics out of the equation for popular music on stage and in studio. Variation is usually unwelcome because it causes headaches on the signal to noise ratio. The engineer wants to take total control over the dynamic levels. That doesn't mean you don't need skill. You actually need good technique to maintain steady dynamics while you play. 2) Hitting as hard as you can is never a good idea. I think the tone suffers. Also, you can actually play as loud or even louder using proper techique than by bashing the kit with all your strength. A drum or a cymbal will only play so loud no matter how hard it is hit. For example, hard hitters usually use thicker heads. Thicker heads muffle the drums. Muffle means reduce the volume. 3) About the only chance we get to vary dynamics is when we are playing with an acoustic group. Jazz trio, big band, unplugged rock group or whatever. Once the guitar players bring out the amps, the songs stay at the same dynamic level. 4) This doesn't mean that drummers don't need to learn how to play dynamically. They do so that they can play appropriately when they get the chance. It is just that we don't get that chance often enough. 5) My biggest pet peeve is people playing too loud during rehersals. Nothing worse than being in a small room with a band playing too loud. That is another reason to learn dyanamics, but that is not about varying dynamics during a song. It is about appropriate sound levels for the room you are in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ulank Posted March 27, 2004 Members Share Posted March 27, 2004 They are extremely important in all aspects of music. You wanted the troof, you got the troof!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted March 27, 2004 Members Share Posted March 27, 2004 Originally posted by rca 1) If you mean a variation in dynamics during a song, amplification has taken dynamics out of the equation for popular music on stage and in studio. Variation is usually unwelcome because it causes headaches on the signal to noise ratio. The engineer wants to take total control over the dynamic levels. That doesn't mean you don't need skill. You actually need good technique to maintain steady dynamics while you play. Not sure I agree with this one, but the rest are on the money. While engineers and soundguys WANT to control the dynamics with the faders, it's still up to the musician to control how hard they hit and vary it within the song as appropriate. For starters, as you mention, the tone varies (i.e. it suffers when you bash according to your post) depending on how hard you hit. Controlling your dynamics (aka how hard you're hitting) can have tonal implications. In addition, varying the volume within the song, adding accents, putting in ghost notes, etc, are all 'dynamic' skills...I'd hate to see some poor engineer trying to push the faders up and down on some hip hop groove full of ghost notes! In bands like most of us play in...where you're not in a stadium, but are playing in bars and clubs, you don't always have the enormo-PA rig, and often times have to use your own skill to play at an appropriate volume throughtout the song (drop back a little during the verse, blow it out for the chorus, whatever). Finally, what you say REALLY only applies to pop music and maybe a few related styles...jazz guys LIVE on dynamics, and in this guy's case (Church praise band stuff) you may have other reasons (vocals, preacher talking over the band, whatever) to move the volume up and down (without the mixing board). Not trying to jump on your case here, but while modern technology has reduced the need for dynamic playing somewhat, it sure hasn't made it go away, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rca Posted March 27, 2004 Members Share Posted March 27, 2004 "In addition, varying the volume within the song, adding accents, putting in ghost notes, etc, are all 'dynamic' skills..." Yeah Steve. I wasn't really thinking about the dynamic aspects of the groove when I was talking about varying dynamics during a song. Another example of that kind of "groove" dynamics is the relative volume of the different parts of the kit: snare, kick, cymbals. Same idea. Same situation if there are individual mics. I guess the point I was trying to make is that when miked instead of varying the volume the idea is to keep a consistent level during sound check and the gig, be it studio or stage. I was also thinking of rock's obsession with loudness, live and recordings. You are right about still needing to play appropriately for the song. I didn't mean that we shouldn't use accents or ghost notes. Just that the goal is to be consistent when miked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ulank Posted March 27, 2004 Members Share Posted March 27, 2004 Originally posted by rca I guess the point I was trying to make is that when miked instead of varying the volume the idea is to keep a consistent level during sound check and the gig, be it studio or stage. I was also thinking of rock's obsession with loudness, live and recordings. You are right about still needing to play appropriately for the song. I didn't mean that we shouldn't use accents or ghost notes. Just that the goal is to be consistent when miked. I don't know man, a band that "mixes itself" always sounds better than a band that doesn't. Besides, do you think the soundman is really workin the faders that much for you, especially without knowing the tunes? I want to rely on the engineer and/or soundman as an "extra" band member as little as possible. Give the sounman a well-balanced, controlled mix. It will only help him make your band sound better. Dynamics always play a role. There's never a reason to discard the benefit of dynamic control in the hands of the player. It's one of the biggest factors in what makes people FEEL the music IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted March 29, 2004 Members Share Posted March 29, 2004 As the defacto soundguy for our band, I know that OUR soundguy has his hands too full to be working the faders during songs. You're right, though...soundguys and studio engineers want a certain level of consistency in order to make their lives easier. For example, when our band is soundchecking, I ask our vocalists to sing into the mic like they will when we're playing live...usually they mumble "check, check" at a MUCH lower volume. If I set up the PA based on these low-level "check" noises, I know that they'll push everything to the redlines the minute we start the first song. So I'm constantly yelling at them to SING LOUDLY when we're checking because that's a better representation of 'reality', and it allows me to set up the PA better. Same for drummers...when you soundcheck, pay careful attention to hitting the drums as hard as you will when the adreneline starts pumping. Also, it's easier for a soundguy if he knows what the UPPER limit is going to be volume wise...the bottom is silence...you can't get any quieter than that. The guy at the board just doesn't want to be 'suprised' when you start hammering rimshots after you soundchecked with brushes! Still, dymanics come into play. As long as the system is set up with the maximum volume set, and the engineer knows roughly what the 'average' sound will be you should be fine. Finally, most engineers I've worked with in the studio DO want a certain level of consistency within the song parts. In other words, if the verse is supposed to be played "mezzo-forte", play it at the same "mezzo-forte" level...if it goes "fortissimo" during the chorus, play it "fortissimo" all the way through. The lack of consistency that engineers gripe about is when, for example, a guy's got a bad foot, and the kick drum hits are coming in randomly loud and soft for no musical reason. There's a million more things that can factor into this as well...probably a discussion better suited for the Live Sound board...how well can the players hear themselves in the monitors or headphones, type of music, venue, # of mics, etc. Every engineer I've talked to, though, will tell you that better musicians (defined as those that have ALL the musical skills associated with their instrument, including appropriate use of a full dynamic range) are MUCH easier to mix than lesser musicians who don't pay attention to dynamics who end up applying dymanics randomly or accidentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ulank Posted March 29, 2004 Members Share Posted March 29, 2004 Originally posted by Old Steve Every engineer I've talked to, though, will tell you that better musicians (defined as those that have ALL the musical skills associated with their instrument, including appropriate use of a full dynamic range) are MUCH easier to mix than lesser musicians who don't pay attention to dynamics who end up applying dymanics randomly or accidentally. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike James Posted July 2, 2006 Members Share Posted July 2, 2006 This is hugely important, and as a mature (playing since 1964) musician, it's definitely one of my pet peeves. The great players I work with know about dynamics and space instinctively. The non-great players I work with seem to not notice either of them. They tend to play all the time, and at the same volume. Hopefully, we all develop in the end, but I wish this aspect of music could sink in at an earlier age. You've got to learn to play your instrument well enough and intuitively enough that you can "step outside" that and hear the whole band. ALL great players do that. My little contribution is a free download of my book, "Drumming for Life", which you can find at http://www.mikejamesjazz.com/dfl_reviews.html For some separate articles from the book, (also free to download) see the page at http://www.mikejamesjazz.com/dfl_hot_topics.html The article near the top, called "Musical Clarity" speaks in detail about dynamics and space. Hope this helps. If young players will learn these things, we'll all produce better music, and have longer, more productive careers. Happy gigging! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SoundwaveLove Posted July 2, 2006 Members Share Posted July 2, 2006 He'll figure it out as he matures and grows up (hopefully that happens) You can't force anyone to play anyway they don't want to. Get him the square pusher album "ultra visitor" and have him listen to track 3. its a masterpeice of dynamics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TAMA_Tom Posted July 2, 2006 Members Share Posted July 2, 2006 You can lead a horse too water- but you can't make him drink. Untill he matures with the instrument and see the benefits himself- your gonna beat a dead horse. Just my insite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigbandbyrne Posted July 2, 2006 Members Share Posted July 2, 2006 If he wants to play loud tell him to lift the sicks high rather than hitting hard. This will make a nice tone. Hitting hard creates tension in the body. This kills all tone! Lifting the sicks higher makes you use the space in the air and tends to be more 'graceful'. Then there is no tension in the body - job done - lovely sound! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockbeat Posted July 2, 2006 Members Share Posted July 2, 2006 Originally posted by TAMA_Tom You can lead a horse too water- but you can't make him drink. Untill he matures with the instrument and see the benefits himself- your gonna beat a dead horse. Just my insite. But if you don't lead that horse to water, he's sure not going to drink, and I wouldn't say that giving a budding musician the resources he needs to better himself is beating a dead horse. Sure, it's not going to instantly make his use of dynamics noticeably better, but good instructional videos can be both imformative and inspiring, and will definitlely go a long way toward helping him mature faster as a player. The Dave Weckl videos are a great suggestion. Smartinez- I would also recommend lessons if a good teacher is available. How old is your son? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmd_97 Posted July 3, 2006 Members Share Posted July 3, 2006 this thread is ancient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richfan Posted July 4, 2006 Members Share Posted July 4, 2006 the suggestions to have him listen to the masters like Steve Smith and Dave Weckl are great. let me throw in another name Peter Erskine. I am aware that he may not dig this music, however once you start seeing these guys play anyone with a drum interest can't turn away. Peter plays with such fluidity and moves effortlessly through all dynamic levels with the apprpriate volume for the music. Other than that, when rehearsing the songs try laying out or talking about how you want the dynamic levels to work. If he understands what levels he should be playing at before he gets there it might help. As one who plays in a worship band I can say that you don't always like others telling you to "play quiter" but the intent is to praise God not to be a drum star. I always think about that when I am playing. I've found has the years hve gone by I play more dynamically. when that music is up I 'm up and when its down I'm down. Even then sometimes I'll hear comments on my playing volume. With more experience will come more refinement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SoundwaveLove Posted July 4, 2006 Members Share Posted July 4, 2006 Originally posted by kmd_97 this thread is ancient LOLOL yeah it is, good eye. "Mike James" thinks he's a necromancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike James Posted September 24, 2006 Members Share Posted September 24, 2006 The "Necromancer" remark leaves me wondering what problem you would have with my posts here. Please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members manoeuver Posted September 24, 2006 Members Share Posted September 24, 2006 Originally posted by Mike James The "Necromancer" remark leaves me wondering what problem you would have with my posts here.Please explain. holy crap he did it again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Davey K Posted September 24, 2006 Members Share Posted September 24, 2006 Claude Coleman Jr. of Ween has had excellent columns in Modern Drummer regarding drum set dynamics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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