Members drumcanman Posted October 30, 2005 Members Share Posted October 30, 2005 Originally posted by Dark Slide Yes, I know my post came across harsh and I also realize that some people might think that using triggers can be considered cutting corners. The difference is that those of us who use triggers are very up front an open about what we use them for. The reason I use triggers is to even out the sound and volume when playing at high speed. The reason EVERYONE I know that uses triggers is for the same reason. You can't play above certain speeds without triggers unless you're ok with it getting muddy and hard to hear. If it were possible to do it without triggers, I would gladly do it (And I am infact trying to do just that right now while I am triggerless with less than satisfactory results). The difference is that you CAN do the same stuff on a regular pedal as you can with a Vruk system. The Vruk system doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't normally do... all it does is cut out the time and effort it takes to learn how to play that way. My problem is the fact that Tim and others who endorse the Vruk system swear up and down that is is not gimmick and/or a crutch. They swear that you can ONLY do these things using a Vruk. As quoted by Tim himself: Except that's not true. You CAN get the kind of clean powerful strokes without the Vruk. THAT is my problem. Not the system itself. Just the smoke Tim and others are trying to blow up peoples ass. I can post links right now to posts by people who are selling Vruks because they "can do e(v)erything on my longboards, that I can with these.", and that is how it is. You don't need the Vruk system. You CAN get those kind of clean powerful strokes without a Vruk. Tim himself posted a clip of some really fast single bass drum work that he said didn't use a Vruk for... yet he still claims that you have to have a Vruk to play that fast. As I said before, it's like a used car salesman saying one thing and then 2 minutes later contradicting himself. Here is the clip: http://media.putfile.com/onefootbandit and when I asked if he was using a vruk system for it Tim said So, which is it? You either need the Vruk to play like that or you don't. You can't have it both ways and THAT is exactly what my problem is. Tim, I and many many other people know that the Vruk is just a gimmick... yet Tim still denies repeatedly (While contradicting himself 2 posts later) that it isn't. I refuse to accept that the Vruk is another angle. This post shows you how to play doubles without any gimmicks or anything more than time and effort. If I need to, I will start a new thread teaching people how to play steady 1 footed 16th note rolls just to PROVE that a Vruk is pointless, unless you want to take the fast gimmicked road rather than learning how to do it without needing a gimmick. You notice that Tim still visits this thread but has yet to clarify what it is that a Vruk allows you to do that can't be done on a normal pedal. He has not responded to explain why he says you can't play clean 16th note rolls with one foot without a Vruk, while at the same time posting clips of himself doing just that (And claiming that he can do it on an acoustic kit). Why? Because he knows he has no response. Either the clip he posted CAN'T be played cleanly on an acoustic kit and he's a liar, or the Vruk isn't needed to play clean powerful strokes with 1 foot and he's a liar. Either way he's talking out of his ass, it's just a matter of what he's talking about. Yes The one foot bandit was done with one foot and done heel up without the vruk. If I do the same triplets with the vruk I will have MUCH More power and yes I can get more speed but You can also get accents with the vruk that like I said otherwise would be exremely difficult to pull off. Nick , You do not need to attack me and call me names. I posted on the vruk site how the vruk straightens out the shuffle. This is ONLY the first thing they also allow you to do for drummers with weak calfs just placing your heel on the vruk plate will cause the pedal to move if you loosen the spring enough. I already said that if it takes pros like Steve Smith and JO JO a long time to get a consistant sound how long would it take NORMAL every day drummers who have jobs or school and don;t get PAID to practice.This is only one benifit of the vruk cleaning up the doubles how about Heel heel toe toe singles with power? No offence to you NICK....but have been posting your demonstration of the heel and toe videos and are saying that you can do exactly what the vuk does.... but YOUR videos show that you are still just doing simple heel and toe and not doing actual straight patterns without the dotted 1/8 shuffle sound? Stop with the name calling and just Drum. God Bless Tim www.timwaterson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Slide Posted October 30, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 30, 2005 Originally posted by drumcanman I posted on the vruk site how the vruk straightens out the shuffle. This is ONLY the first thing they also allow you to do for drummers with weak calfs just placing your heel on the vruk plate will cause the pedal to move if you loosen the spring enough. I already said that if it takes pros like Steve Smith and JO JO a long time to get a consistant sound how long would it take NORMAL every day drummers who have jobs or school and don;t get PAID to practice.This is only one benifit of the vruk cleaning up the doubles how about Heel heel toe toe singles with power? No offence to you NICK....but have been posting your demonstration of the heel and toe videos and are saying that you can do exactly what the vuk does.... but YOUR videos show that you are still just doing simple heel and toe and not doing actual straight patterns without the dotted 1/8 shuffle sound? Stop with the name calling and just Drum. God Bless Tim www.timwaterson Tim, I'm not trying to call you names... I am just to tell you and anyone else who asks why, why I dislike the Vruk system.Again, you said it right in your post. It's possible to play exactly how you play with a Vruk without it, it just takes time, like Steve Smith, Jojo (Not to mention yourself) and others have put in. The only difference is that the Vruk removes the need to put that time and evergy in. It's a crutch, a gimmick and no different than the dualist and/or giant step.Secondly, I have never said that *I* can play exactly like the Vruk does (And I would be interested to see an example of where I said this), *I* have no need because I never play without a double pedal or 2 bass drums. What I DID say was that it is POSSIBLE to play like that without the Vruk, and if this is some kind of open challenge to me, I will gladly accept and learn to play a straight pattern with 1 foot just to prove that the Vruk is nothing more than a gimmick.I have said it before and I will say it again... I don't have a problem with you (You were infact my inspiration for learning to play heel-toe) or the Vruk system itself. I have a problem with how you market it and attempt to pass it off as some miracle apparatus that will allow you to do things on the drums that would otherwise be impossible... and at the VERY least, you and I both know it's not true. Though sometimes I wonder if you have gone so overboard on the Vruk bit that you have managed to convince yourself differently.So, I'll learn how to play straight 16th note patterns with 1 foot, and you can post a video showing us something unique about the Vruk. I want to see something the Vruk lets you do, that time and effort alone wont allow you to do. If it is such a fantastic invention and benifit to the drumming world, then surely it will allow us to do something that hasn't already been done. I want to be convinced, so convince me.And when you've done that, maybe we can come up with a gimmick to allow our hands to play cleaner, stronger doubles and see how THAT goes over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drumcanman Posted October 30, 2005 Members Share Posted October 30, 2005 Originally posted by Dark Slide Tim, I'm not trying to call you names... I am just to tell you and anyone else who asks why, why I dislike the Vruk system. Again, you said it right in your post. It's possible to play exactly how you play with a Vruk without it, it just takes time, like Steve Smith, Jojo (Not to mention yourself) and others have put in. The only difference is that the Vruk removes the need to put that time and evergy in. It's a crutch, a gimmick and no different than the dualist and/or giant step. Secondly, I have never said that *I* can play exactly like the Vruk does (And I would be interested to see an example of where I said this), *I* have no need because I never play without a double pedal or 2 bass drums. What I DID say was that it is POSSIBLE to play like that without the Vruk, and if this is some kind of open challenge to me, I will gladly accept and learn to play a straight pattern with 1 foot just to prove that the Vruk is nothing more than a gimmick. I have said it before and I will say it again... I don't have a problem with you (You were infact my inspiration for learning to play heel-toe) or the Vruk system itself. I have a problem with how you market it and attempt to pass it off as some miracle apparatus that will allow you to do things on the drums that would otherwise be impossible... and at the VERY least, you and I both know it's not true. Though sometimes I wonder if you have gone so overboard on the Vruk bit that you have managed to convince yourself differently. So, I'll learn how to play straight 16th note patterns with 1 foot, and you can post a video showing us something unique about the Vruk. I want to see something the Vruk lets you do, that time and effort alone wont allow you to do. If it is such a fantastic invention and benifit to the drumming world, then surely it will allow us to do something that hasn't already been done. I want to be convinced, so convince me. And when you've done that, maybe we can come up with a gimmick to allow our hands to play cleaner, stronger doubles and see how THAT goes over. I am glad that I inspired you to work on your doubles... and if you are STILL chasing my record? GREAT, as records were made to be broken so good luck with that. NICK I said that a clean heel toe is ONLY the begining if the Vruk were a crutch than anyone could put it on their pedal and be able to plull of JO JO MAyer type stuff. This is not true.. Guitar players use a distortion to add to their playing. The Vruk is an ACCESSORIE pedal and not like the Giant step or Duallist. I said it is possible to play SOME of the things you can do with a VRUK without one.But Not all . WHY was JO JO the master shaking his head in disbelief after watching me demonstrate the vruk to him? I don't mean to blow my own horn but this was JO JO Mayer not some kid who could be tricked into thinking this was a gimmick. Ask JO JO next time you see him. This is just for the people who are interested in VRUK if you don't like it fine you are allowed your opinion. If I explain the MANY benifits of the VRUk then of coursr I sound like the salesman you are claiming. VRUK does not pay me to endorse them I endorse Vruk because I believe in their product.You can also use a VRuk to get cool sounds out of the hihat. God Bless Tim www.timwaterson.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Slide Posted October 30, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 30, 2005 Originally posted by drumcanman Guitar players use a distortion to add to their playing. I understand this. Without a distortion pedal, the guitar would sound clean. You can't get a distorted sound without something to cause the distortion. Would you still buy a distortion pedal if you could get the same sound without one? I can't imagine why. So why would someone buy a Vruk when they can do the same stuff without one? I realize you SAY that people are amazed by what you can do with a Vruk, but as of right now, I haven't seen anything worth noting. So convince me. As far as your record goes... when I can afford the longboards to practice on, I'll start working on it, but I don't like the longboards and wouldn't use them for anything other than training for WFD, and right now buying a pair is not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Slide Posted February 12, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 12, 2006 Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tangman Posted February 12, 2006 Members Share Posted February 12, 2006 I can now do heel toe 16th note doubles at 100bpm now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MaD_DrUmMeR87 Posted February 13, 2006 Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 Has anyone ever heard of the Ballisitic System?? I used to get from this guy all the time. I was so close to ordering it one time. Anyone have any experience with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Locky Posted February 13, 2006 Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 awesome video's man.. gonna be a big help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Archon_113 Posted February 13, 2006 Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 What do you see as the advantage of having the spring tension set as tight as possible? I have my springs really loose and I find that I can play pretty fast doubles like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grravee Posted March 17, 2006 Members Share Posted March 17, 2006 awesome info man......i had known the thought behind it but the pedal adjustment(for me atleast)is what kicked it in gear for me.....thanks again for your time and insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Slide Posted March 17, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 17, 2006 Hey, glad the videos helped. I definitely think that to really get the motion down, pedal set up is really important. MaD_DrUmMeR87: Don't waste your $$ on the "Ballistic System". You wont learn anything more than what is in these videos. Archon_113: I believe we cleared this up in PMs, but for the benifit of everyone else, I'll answer again here. At my higher speeds, I am playing 20 strokes a second. That means each beater hits the head 10 times a second. Which means that every second the beater has to start from it's normal resting position, stroke the head and return to a starting point 10 times. Needless to say, that is a lot of motion. In MY opinion, the faster you can get the beater back to a starting position where it can develop power for another stroke, the faster you can play... which is why I have my springs cranked up tight. For me to play 10 strokes a second with my feet, each stroke can only take 0.1 seconds. If it takes that amount of time JUST for the beater to get back to starting position, I'm not going to be able to play that fast. The reality is that the beater has to return to starting position in 0.05 seconds and the stroke itself has to only take 0.05 seconds. When we're talking about that small a time frame, every advantage counts, and I think that a super tight spring pulling the beater back as fast as it possibly can makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SippyCup Posted March 18, 2006 Members Share Posted March 18, 2006 Good clear videos. I just watched them, haven't had a chance to try it out yet.. I've actually never tried heel-toe (just now got to where I can actually USE double bass fairly well, so it's time to improve). Any idea how well this might work on a direct-drive pedal? I have a flying dragon which I dearly love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Locky Posted March 18, 2006 Members Share Posted March 18, 2006 Originally posted by SippyCup Good clear videos. I just watched them, haven't had a chance to try it out yet.. I've actually never tried heel-toe (just now got to where I can actually USE double bass fairly well, so it's time to improve). Any idea how well this might work on a direct-drive pedal? I have a flying dragon which I dearly love. i've tried this on a iron cobra and i found it difficlut.. i then tried it on a yamaha direct drive and it was a brease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BASSNUT Posted March 18, 2006 Members Share Posted March 18, 2006 I CANT BEND MY FOOT BACK THAT FAR:( I FROZE THEM BOTH MANY YEARS AGO...FOOT CONTROL SUCKS..... NOT TO MENTION THEY ARE SIZE 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockbeat Posted March 19, 2006 Members Share Posted March 19, 2006 Originally posted by BASSNUT NOT TO MENTION THEY ARE SIZE 19 Holy Crap!!! Where do you buy footwear, your local canoe shop??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Slide Posted March 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 19, 2006 Originally posted by BASSNUT I CANT BEND MY FOOT BACK THAT FAR:( I FROZE THEM BOTH MANY YEARS AGO...FOOT CONTROL SUCKS.....NOT TO MENTION THEY ARE SIZE 19 As I have already said. The size of your foot makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Archon_113 Posted March 20, 2006 Members Share Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by Dark Slide As I have already said. The size of your foot makes no difference. Not being able to bend your feet backwards might though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Slide Posted March 20, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by Archon_113 Not being able to bend your feet backwards might though I agree. That could be a bit of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BASSNUT Posted March 21, 2006 Members Share Posted March 21, 2006 I MACHINE MY OWN SPACERS SO THE HEEL IS UP ABOUT 2".MAKES IT BETTER FOR ME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mparsons Posted July 13, 2006 Members Share Posted July 13, 2006 bump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 12OzEpilogue Posted July 14, 2006 Members Share Posted July 14, 2006 hey umm i am very intrested in heal toe but unfortunantly i have a horrible gibralter double kick pedal and the only thing you can adjust is the springs its single chain and i'v tried to do heal to but it just doesnt seem to work i might be doing something wrong i dunno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members naturalbluesky Posted July 19, 2006 Members Share Posted July 19, 2006 Know a guy named Andrew Thomas Montgomery aka Scotland lol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HottKarl Posted October 6, 2006 Members Share Posted October 6, 2006 Bump it up for drums181's double bass questions. I'd put a vote in to sticky this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted October 6, 2006 Members Share Posted October 6, 2006 I've tried this a few different ways and I'm hoping they all are wrong. I've tried pressing with the ball of the foot during the down (heel) stroke and with the toes, mainly the big toe, during the upward (toe) stroke. With little success there, I went to using the rear (heel side) of the ball of the foot on the heel stroke and the middle to front of the ball on the toe stroke (never actually using the toes). I really can't tell from the videos what is pressing at what time. It appears that the ball of the foot is used during single strokes but I get a little lost during the heel-toe. From the little foot tilting movement at moderate to higher speeds, I can tell I'm definately doing something wrong as I need a larger swing to get it. I'm a slow learner. Maybe just slow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poco Askew Posted January 28, 2007 Members Share Posted January 28, 2007 This sounds like a great thread, but none of the video is available anymore. Is there another link that will get me there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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