Small kit with big kit sound?

[davesisk]

Hi Folks:

 

I recently dug my late 80's Premier Projector kit out of the attic. It's a 6 pc with two 24 x 18 kicks, 13 x 10, 14 x 11, 16 x 16 toms, and 14 x 8 snare. Completely birch wood. It has lots of attack, but still has a deep sound to it. I particularly like the chest-moving thump from the 24" kicks.

 

The problem is that this kit is physically quite large (even if I set it up with only one kick drum). I'm seriously considering selling the shell kit and snare, and replacing it with something that is physically smaller. A fusion-style kit 20" diameter kick and smaller sized toms would be ideal. I intend to use it mainly for recording, and will usually be rock-oriented music.

 

The first question is birch or maple? The general concensus is that maple drums are a little warmer, but birch has more attack. Will a smaller kick in birch sound deep enough to be comparable to my current larger birch kit, if tuned properly? Or do I really need to be looking at maple since I want to downsize the kit without sacrificing deep tone?

 

The second question is shell thickness, but it seems most modern late-model drums have thin or medium-thin shells (say, 6mm). I do prefer thinner shells for the resonance and tone they add (versus thicker shells where most of the tone comes from the head).

 

So far, just about everyone seems to have positive opinions of two kits: Gretsch Renown Maple, and Sonor 3005 (3003 also?). (Hardware isn't a concern to me as I'll be using an existing rack.) I'm also curious about the birch versions of these...Gretsch Catalina Birch and Sonor 2005. Anyone who has any of these and/or records them, please chime in.

 

I've played a Pacific MX in our worship band rehearsal facility, and I like the 20" kick sound (it's plenty deep, but not nearly as loud as my 24" kicks), but I'm not particularly impressed with the toms or snare (but, in all fairness, this kit hasn't really been tuned it's best either).

 

I'm trying to find some of these locally, but so far physically putting hands on any of them is difficult...they're either sold out or not stocked. (I guess the sold out is a good sign, eh?)

 

Any advice appreciated.

 

Dave

[Old Steve]

To me, the biggest issue you'll have is with fusion-style toms. If you're used to the big drum sound, it's just not that easy to get smaller toms to sound like bigger ones, IMHO. You'll have more luck with 20" kicks, and could even get a 22" if you wanted and still be ahead size wise.

 

As for the toms, most fusion type kits have a 14" floor tom, and they're usually only 12" deep. In my limited experience trying to work with this arrangement, there's just no way to get a 14x12 tom to sound anywhere close to a 16x16 floor tom. You may want to go with the 20" kick, but keep continue to use more "standard" size toms.

 

As for maple/birch, it's your call. You're right when people say that birch cuts better and maple is warmer, but all of that doesn't really mean THAT much compared to what your own ears tell you. As for thick/thin shells, each manufacturer has their own theories about what the 'right' thickness is, but thinner shells do resonate more in my experience.

 

If I were looking for a new kit, I'd get settled on sizes first. Then I'd go play as many examples (maple and birch) of the drums in those sizes until I found one that I liked at the price I wanted.

 

One other option to consider:

 

You've got a nice kit already but you just want it smaller. You could play the 13" and 16" toms and set up in a 4 piece. Then you could use your current snare or get something else (snares for drummers are like shoes for women...no such thing as "too many" in the closet). Then just call up a custom shop and have them build you a new 20" kick to your specs. The odds are that if your current kit is a lacquer finish, they'd be able to match the finish pretty well. If not, you could just re-wrap the whole thing in a matching wrap (do the two 24" kicks while you're at it), and then you'll have a bunch of matching drums that you can vary depending on the gig you're playing.

 

Anyway, good luck and happy shopping.

[Black Frog]

I'm going in just the opposite direction. BIGGER!

 

I have two smaller kits that work great for smaller gigs, but I now want a 24" kick (or 26"! ) with one rack and 16 and 18 floors. BIG drums.

 

My smaller kits are maple, but I think I'm going birch for the bigger kit. Possibly even oak. Oak and birch both have a lower fundamental tone than maple. But maple resonates a little better.

 

I figure that a little more attack sound given by the birch will help balance out the largeness of the drums. Just my theory.....

 

Don't get me wrong- I love my little maple kit (20" kick, 10-12-14 w/ 13 snare) and it sounds fabulous through a nice P.A. Full and rich.

 

But I want bigger sounding drums for the larger stages and festivals. You just can't get that large drum sound without large drums. Sure, you can tune smaller toms pretty low, but it will only work so far. You just can't reproduce that low fundamental head vibration that occurs on a big drum with a smaller tom.

[davesisk]

Hey Steve:

 

Thanks for the reply. I've read quite a few of your posts so far...thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

I've actually considered just finding a smaller diameter Premier Projector kick drum...in fact, I've got a search set up on Ebay right now. I *believe* these Premiers were 2nd from top of the line in the late 80's, so it's doubful I'll find that specific kick...I don't even know if they made a smaller one, for that matter.

 

You have given me quite a good idea though...I could very well just find another smaller birch kick...I'll investigate that option.

 

For whatever odd reason, even with all the music stores in Raleigh, most of them have the low end kits setup for folks to actually play. Most (not all) of the mid to higher-end kits are the boxes or setup on an overhead area...go figure. Makes auditioning them quite time consuming! But, I will indeed bug the snot out of the folks there when I narrow down my choices enough that my ears are the final decision maker.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you have any experience recording drums? I've heard quite a few folks say that birch drums record more easily (less tweaking afterwards), but I'm not sure how much of that is opinion vs. fact.

 

Thanks,

Dave

[davesisk]

Hey Black Frog:

 

Thanks for the reply. I found some good info on the "Drum Tuning Bible" site about maple vs birch. The author of that says that birch generally has about 10% less low-end than similar maple, and generally roughly the same mids and highs. I have to keep in mind that this statement is merely someone's opinion (although it may very well be a quite accurate opinion...my personal jury is still out on it).

 

However, like you, I don't find my current kit lacking in lows at all. BUT, I think that may be because of the larger and deeper drum sizes. The shells are rather thin (particularly for an 80's kit), so I'd imagine that helps as well.

 

But, I guess that what I'm thinking is that perhaps going with maple with it's alledgedly warmer sound will help compensate for smaller drum sizes. That's my initial thought, anyway...not sure how accurate my assumption is.

 

If anyone has any experiences with recording maple vs birch drums, I'd really love to hear them.

 

Dave

[Old Steve]

 

Originally posted by davesisk ...For whatever odd reason, even with all the music stores in Raleigh, most of them have the low end kits setup for folks to actually play. Most (not all) of the mid to higher-end kits are the boxes or setup on an overhead area...go figure. Makes auditioning them quite time consuming! But, I will indeed bug the snot out of the folks there when I narrow down my choices enough that my ears are the final decision maker. Just out of curiosity, do you have any experience recording drums? I've heard quite a few folks say that birch drums record more easily (less tweaking afterwards), but I'm not sure how much of that is opinion vs. fact. Thanks, Dave

 

 

Yeah, that's a problem. Stores would much rather have the general public take a few whacks on a $600 kit than risk somebody damaging something high end.

 

One option is to find a custom guy right off the bat and visit his showroom. I had a blast when I visited Precision Drum company (near me) and played all kinds of different drums. It became much more obvious how different sizes and thicknesses impacted the sound of a drum. Also, I play every drum I can whenever I can. I was at a rehearsal studio a few years ago and played a Yamaha Maple kick that I still think was the best sounding bass drum I've ever played. Anyway, good luck with bugging the sales guys.

 

As for recording, I've heard the same thing about birch, but I don't get it. People have been recording with all kinds of drums forever. Bottom line, if the drums sound good live, they'll sound good on tape (or on a microchip, I guess). Good sounding drums, good mics and placement, and good mixing equal good drum recordings. It's just that simple, IMHO.

[Black Frog]

I've read those same comments in that tuning bible. But after talking with Jim Haler (of Yamaha drums) quite a bit, he was telling me that birch has a lower fundamental note than maple, but maple will resonate more. Oak is lower yet. It may be that the maple will resonate their lows stronger and longer. But given two chunks of wood of the same dimensions, Jim (and Yamaha) say that birch has a lower fundamental note to it. Jim has been playing a 24" oak kick that he says will make people sterile. He can choose just about any set he wants- and he likes their oak line which is less expensive than birch, beech, or maple.

 

Problem is, you get people with differing opinions because they are comparing apples and oranges. Shell thickness AND depth will affect the way the drum sounds, not to mention head choice. A thicker shelled maple tom will sound (and tune) different than a thinner shelled birch one. Somebody hears those two drums and draws a conclusion of birch vs. maple. Now somewhere else another person hears a thick birch shell against a thinner maple shell. They draw a different conclusion. See what I mean?

 

Yamaha put out a really good CD a few years ago and I've mentioned to Jim that they need to update it with the oaks and nouveau lines.

 

What they did is they took the SAME SIZED Yamaha kit in beech, maple and birch into the studio. Russ Miller played all the kits with the SAME head types and approximate tunings. All the same mics and mic positions were used. All the board settings were the same. They wanted to keep everything as consistent as possible, leaving the only variable the wood.

 

It's a cool sample CD that shows there is a difference in woods.

 

The birch lends itself to recording because of the sharper attack and a little less resonance. If things resonate too long, you then have to use gates or moongels or some other means of controlling the sound. That's not to say you maple won't record well! Head choice and tuning have a greater impact on studio sound than the wood choice. But all things being equal, the difference in woods is audible.

 

For smaller drums, I do like my maple kits.

[Old Steve]

Good info. I'd love to hear that CD. It is damn near impossible to get true "apples to apples" comparisons. Even if you're in a store and find two drums of identical sizes and shell thicknesses (but two different wood species), very few people including myself would ever take the time to make sure they had the same heads on them and that they were tuned identically.

 

My real feeling on drums is that you should find a kit that inspires you to play, a kit that you love. Pretty much any quality kit these days sounds pretty good, so other variables play a bigger role. No two people will have the same reaction to a mixture of all the variables.

 

Kinda like food: taste is only one component of enjoying food. If taste was the only parameter, we'd all be eating atificially flavored gels through straws or something. Texture, smell, looks, and even the environment you're in when you eat somethng ALL come into play.

 

Same deal with drums.

[davesisk]

Steve:

 

Very well put...considering specs, shell sizes, materials, etc., etc., the part that still matters is if it sounds good, feels good, and is otherwise appealing to the specifica player. Very important to listen with your ears and not with your eyes however...

 

Dave

[rca]

If you like the sound of the kit you have, use it. A 24x18 inch kick does not take up that much more space than a 20x16 inch kick.

 

Birch projects well, which is why its picked a lot for the stage. It is also used in the studio, but not because it projects well. Because people like its balanced sound. Projection isn't needed when you place the mic two inches from the batter head.

 

Everything else being equal, birch may have a lower fundamental pitch than maple, but maple has relatively subdued high freqs so birch sounds brighter than maple. (This works the same way as putting a Pinstripe head on a tom makes the tom appear to have a lower fundamental pitch by killing the high freqs, although the low freq sound actually has not changed at all.) That is why birch is a popular choice for fusion sized kits. It is also why large maple and mahagony (with even less emphasis on higher freqs) drums are a popular choice too.

 

The size of the drum is very important to its apparent pitch. With the possible exception of African Mahogany to a limited extent, a small drum is not going to sound as big as a big drum no matter what wood it is made of. At least not to my ears.

 

If you want smaller drums because they are higher pitched, then you need smaller drums. Tuning a 13 inch tom can make it sound like a 12 inch tom, but it is not going to sound like a 10 inch tom.

In that case, I suggest you buy 10 inch and 12 inch toms to use with your existing 24 inch kick and 14 inch or 16 inch tom as a floor tom. As long as the 10 and 12 inch toms match each other sound wise, you don't have to worry so much about them being the same construction as the rest of the kit because the floor, snare and kick are going to sound different anyway.

 

To complement your large snare, I suggest you pick up a decent 5x14 inch maple or brass snare. That size sounds good at all dynamic levels.

[davesisk]

Actually, one of the goals I'm trying to accomplish in addition to just requiring a smaller setup area is to get the setup low enough that my 3 yr old daughter can play it when she gets a little older (if she chooses to). It would be 10 years before she's tall enough to play this kit. So, a 20" x whatever kick would be ideal...with smaller toms, I can get the setup much lower as well as being more compact. Even a 22" kick with smaller toms would lower it quite a bit.

 

And yes, I know it'll still be quite a while before she can play an adult size kit, even if it is a smaller fusion-size kit. But, in the meantime, she's got one of those PDP kid-size kits to bang on...

 

Dave

[rca]

To have the most flexibility in setup, do not mount the rack toms on the kick. I use RIMs suspended from a cymbal stand or snare stands. With one rack tom, I use a snare stand placed just to my left of the Kick. The height of the tom is not limited by the size of the kick that way. For toms above the kick, I use a RIM stand.

 

A 20 inch kick will allow a lower setting, but--more importantly-- buying shallow or traditional size toms will save you at least two inches of height over power sizes that is completely unnecessary in the studio.

 

One last trick, place the smallest rack tom over the kick drum instead of at your extreme left as is typical. Some pros do this, not for the set up, but just so that their fills sound different from everyone elses.

 

By the way, I have 20x14 inch kicks and short of samples I cannot get them to sound like a 24 inch kick. But I like them. And they are much easier to carry through a door and fit in the car than a 24 inch kick.

[davesisk]

Hey folks:

 

I snagged a slightly used Grestch Renown Maple kit off Ebay for a good price. It's in pretty much spotless condition, so I'm pretty pleased with that! I'm not crazy about the previous owner's head choices (Remo FiberSkin batters on toms, a little too midrangey for my tastes, especially on smaller toms) so I plan to switch those for Remo Pinstripe clears on the toms. I may keep the FiberSkin on the snare for a while. The kick sounds nice...Evans pre-muffled batter head.

 

I've got it all setup on my existing rack. Man, what a difference in setup going to fusion-sized drums makes. Everything's within easy reach now...I'm certainly liking that.

 

Anyway, can't wait to get some recordings of these.

 

I'll be selling the Premier Projectors...if anyone's interested in those, shoot me a PM.

 

Here's some pics of the Premier Projectors.

http://www.ipass.net/davesisk/forsale/Drums_PremierProjectors01.JPG

http://www.ipass.net/davesisk/forsale/Drums_PremierProjectors02.JPG

http://www.ipass.net/davesisk/forsale/Drums_PremierProjectors03.JPG

http://www.ipass.net/davesisk/forsale/Drums_PremierProjectors05.JPG

http://www.ipass.net/davesisk/forsale/Drums_PremierProjectors06.JPG

http://www.ipass.net/davesisk/forsale/Drums_PremierProjectors07.JPG

 

Here's a demo (new song arrangement for the worship band I play in...it's pretty rocked up, give it a listen) recorded with the Premier's...I used a single AKG D-112 kick mic and a MXL-990 condenser as a single overhead. These Premier's sound great even with minimal mic'ing and production. (If can get the Gretsch's to sound this good, I'll be thrilled.) My drumming is a little sloppy...I primarily play bass these days, but the drum sound is surprisingly good, IMHO.

 

http://www.ipass.net/davesisk/music/other/SingToTheKing_DaveArrangement.mp3

 

Dave