Tuning/Setting up Bass Drum

[Chris_NY]

Hello,

 

I am new to Acoustic drums and conseqently am learning all over again. Previously I had only played an Acoustic Electric Hybrid that I made with a Roland brain and DDrum triggers with mesh heads.

 

Recently Have moved and as such I have a place to play where noise is not a factor. I have put real heads and cymbals on my kit. I have 2 questions that perhaps you all can give me some insight/direction.

 

Firstly the bass drum is not as loud as I had thought it would. It can't keep up with the other drums volume wise. Especially the snare which is much louder then the thump of the bass.

 

I put new heads on all the other drums but with the bass drum I am still using the stock head. I have tuned the bass drum as deep as I can as instructed in the Tuning bible. (left the reso side as loose as possible while maintaining a decent tone) I have a pillow in the drum because I like the tone I get and I also like the rebound from the kick beater with the pillow. There is less slap back and less issues with unintentional double hits. (I like to rest the beater against the head when not being used so that can make you prone to double shots)

 

My question: Is putting somthing in the lines of a powerstroke on the Bass going to increase volume any? or just improve the tone of the drum. I have heard that putting a vent hole in the Reso sice will actually decrease the sound level. Is this true or would it be worth trying? Ultimately this is only an 18" bass and I know my expectations can't be too high. I know I will need to replace it BUT if anyone has any suggestions on optimizing the sound output of the drum I would much appreciate it.

 

My other quick question is about Hi-hats. I just picked up some Paiste 201's. I like the ride.. I like the crash. The Hi-hats are what I have issue with. To really get a good sound out of them I honestly have to whack the {censored} out of them. Is this normal? or just due to the fact that they are thick and more or less bottom of the line Cymbals? or is there a technique issue here (most likely I am guessing) if so any pointers or suggestions would really help.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

[DownByLaw]

First, coming off electronics to acoustics is a bit of a slog. I started on acoustics, and switched to electronics for 4 years. The electronics can really screw with your dynamics imho, so it will take some time to make the switch. (you want loud, you gotta hit those things)

 

I play a Premier xpk set, which has a good sounding but not overly powerful bass drum. I've found switching to an Aquarian super kick head (batter and front with port) has transformed this drum. VERY punchy, great tone, plenty of volume. You may want to try the super kick. I'm not sure the Powerstroke will give you any more volume, but the superkick will. (I use the SK2, some like the SK1) You could also try a hard beater. (I use an original Axis with it's original plastic beater)

 

Don't really know what to say about the hats, although recently I read an interview with Steve Gadd where he stated that he used the bottom hat on top. (reversed the hats) I decided to try this and like it quite a bit. More volume in my case, nicer sizzle and a more defined "chick" when footing it. (I use new beats) You could try it, never know.

 

What kind of set is this? (brand, wood)

 

Patrick

[relva2]

i've found overall that venting doesn't notably increase volume as much as it does attack. (too much venting can decrease volume subtly) however, a small vent will give enough more attack at such a low volume loss that the perceived volume is higher--giving your sound a more in-your-face sound.

 

the hats sound like its just a matter of preference for you. but maybe you can mix it up to like them or they'll grow on you.

[Thingfish]

 

Originally posted by Chris_NY Firstly the bass drum is not as loud as I had thought it would. It can't keep up with the other drums volume wise. Especially the snare which is much louder then the thump of the bass. I put new heads on all the other drums but with the bass drum I am still using the stock head. I have tuned the bass drum as deep as I can as instructed in the Tuning bible. (left the reso side as loose as possible while maintaining a decent tone) I have a pillow in the drum because I like the tone I get and I also like the rebound from the kick beater with the pillow. There is less slap back and less issues with unintentional double hits. (I like to rest the beater against the head when not being used so that can make you prone to double shots) My question: Is putting somthing in the lines of a powerstroke on the Bass going to increase volume any? or just improve the tone of the drum. I have heard that putting a vent hole in the Reso sice will actually decrease the sound level. Is this true or would it be worth trying? Ultimately this is only an 18" bass and I know my expectations can't be too high. I know I will need to replace it BUT if anyone has any suggestions on optimizing the sound output of the drum I would much appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

Remove the pillow and use weatherstripping or felt on the batter head.

 

To get volume you need to move air. The more padding you place in the drum, the less air you can move.

[Chris_NY]

Gee thanks for all these suggestions. It sucks I am at work cus now I can't wait to go home and try some of these.

 

As for what kind of drums they are. Don't laugh It's a Tama Stagestar set. Remember originally I mentioned this was an Electric Hybrid. So the size of the drums had no bearing on performance. So I went with it because the shells are somewhat smaller. Really they aren't though. The Toms are basically the same as most fusion sets. 10/12/14 the snare is 13. The only drum that is really smallish is the Bass and apparently perhaps the volume suffers as a result.

 

I have been trolling on ebay for a 20 or 22 incher in the Midnight Blue color to replace it with. But until then I wanna make the best with what I have.

 

As for the hats I think part of this is me and my inexperience. With the Electronics it didn't matter how hard my foot was setting on the hat pedal when It was at rest. With these this matters and is directly proportional to how good the sound comming out is. I think I am starting to get the knack for them slowly. I am sure it will take time and Rome wasn't built in a day. Meantime I am gonna try the upside down idea and see how that works out.

 

Thanks again !

 

--EDIT--

 

To be honest I am really liking this Acoustic crap. I think sooner then later I am going to just Ebay the small set and get a full size. (Probably in the next few months)

[rumblebelly]

A Stagestar is a fine kit. Aquarian SK II heads are a great introduction to bass drum heads. It's really hard to get a bad sound out of it. I rarely tune mine and I've had it on for 2 or 3 years. It still sounds like a damn subwoofer.

 

I understand your pain about not hearing the kick, especially if there are other instruments going on. However, the sound shoots forward so anyone standing in front of the kit will probably hear the kick drum more than you.

 

Have fun!

[pconn171]

One thing to remember is that not only is the kick the quietest drum in a normal set up, but it also doesn't face you. You're pushing the sound away from you on the initial attack which makes it a bit more quiet and it's the furthest away from you genrally. When you played electric, you probably had the kick drum blasting through headphones or through a speaker and you could choose the volume you wanted it at. If you play live with a monitor, you can reproduce that, but not at home with no monitor.

[coyote-1]

It shouldn't be if you've practiced your technique, and/or haven't mufled the crap out of the drum. A single hard whack at the BD should be LOUD!

 

Originally posted by pconn171 One thing to remember is that not only is the kick the quietest drum in a normal set up

 

[Drumr]

 

Originally posted by pconn171 One thing to remember is that not only is the kick the quietest drum in a normal set up

 

 

This is the fact.

 

That's why many drummers, myself included, over the years had to mic ONLY the kick drum as all the others hold their own in the typical bar band situation.

 

Especially if, like me, you play heel down. You pretty much will have to mic the kick to get it up with the other drums.

 

I mic all my drums and am playing thru a Bose Personalized Amplification System which is set up "behind" the drummer, so you get to hear all that beautiful mic'd sound, yet without being all that loud.

[Chris_NY]

You know I never thought of it that way. Your right with the Electronics I did have the monitors facing me and the kick was blaring loud. I also didn't even consider the fact that the bass now shoots away from me. It really does make sense.

 

I have the means to mic the drums and put them into a headphone mix. Ultimately I am setting up my basment to be a personal studio so the equipment is just sitting there until I frame out and sound treat all the walls. Again your right, playing the Electronics I got really used to putting a headset on. I feel I can really hear things better which equates to a better steady rhythem at least for me. Even when I had the Electronics playing out loud I still found myself putting on the headset because I feel more comfortable that way.

 

Talking about the kick technique. I am just learning so my style is probably not the best. I find myself playing both depending on that I am playing. I think majority of the time I am heel up though. This is probably because I am trying to whack the crap out of that Bass and get it to speak out more !

 

As for the heads I am using a powestroke ont he snare and that crap is blaring loud ! (but I like it .. I like it alot) on the Toms I am using Aquarian Performance 2's and they are loud. Your right about the Aquarians they are real easy to tune. But I am not sure I like the rebound on them. (there isn't much at all) Low rebound is probably good though for the bass. Then I can take the pillow out and not get those false hits but still get all the volume. I also want to try the weatherstrip idea. I haven't gotten the chance to give that one a whirl yet.

 

Thanks again for all the comments. Keepem comming I really appreciate them and I know I have so much to learn.

[Rumor]

My kit is the Stagestar. On my kick I have an Evans EQ 4 batter and an Evans EQ 3 resonant which is ported. Also have an Evan's damping pillow inside and an Evan's beater patch. Anyway, it's a pretty loud little beast.

 

Dustin

[Chris_NY]

That is the Stagestar that you were playing in the recordings on our site? I never heard it recorded before I didn't realize it sounded that good. Was it totally all the drums or were samples used?

 

If you don't mind me asking what heads do you have on your Toms both Batter and Reso side?

[Rumor]

Originally posted by Chris_NY That is the Stagestar that you were playing in the recordings on our site? I never heard it recorded before I didn't realize it sounded that good. Was it totally all the drums or were samples used? If you don't mind me asking what heads do you have on your Toms both Batter and Reso side?

 

I hope you're talking to me, if not I'll feel like an ass.

 

My kit was played (by our ex-drummer, not me) on the song Odium Overdrive. I think the other song up is programmed drums, but might be sampled from my kit. The kick you hear is a sampled kick. Mainly because it was faster to throw a sample on there because the drummer was really inconsistent with volume. The kick does sound good recorded though.

 

My toms, which really need tuned well, have Evans Coated G2's on the batter side and Evans G1's on the resonant side.

 

Dustin

[pconn171]

 

Originally posted by coyote-1 It shouldn't be if you've practiced your technique, and/or haven't mufled the crap out of the drum. A single hard whack at the BD should be LOUD!

 

 

This is funny because I read an article on ear protection a few years back and the bass drum only clocked in at 110dB at the drummer's ears and the snare drum at over 125dB. I guess they should've had someone with good technique do the study so that the results would be more accurate. Oddly enough, the toms were lower than the snare and louder than the bass, just like my set. Strange? Where's the class that teaches you how to make all of your drums the same volume? Oh yeah, I hate muffling on bass drums by the way. I like my drums to sound like drums, not carboard boxes.

[Chris_NY]

Yea the snare is obnoxious .. I am going to order me some drummers headphones and set up a headphone mix. Hopefully wearing the isolation headset will make the sound more bearable on my ears.

[pconn171]

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get used to playing with the set without the headphones. It may sound a bit strange at first, but you'll learn the dynamics much better if you are listening to your kit and not an isolated mix with the headphone volume way down. I'd recommend just making the adjustment rather than trying to reproduce the sound of the electric set up. Also, try some ear plugs too. They sometimes seem to reduce some of the overall "noise" in the mix of sounds that are overlapping eachother. You can hear the individual drums a little clearer on the attack - probably very similar to what the audience would get from the drum cutting through a band. You'll probably even begin to heard you bass drum a little better. Just a though - take it or leave it, but I too made the transition from electric to acoustic and I know where you're coming from.

[coyote-1]

I ain't saying it won't be slightly quieter from the drummer's chair. But it shouldn't be drastically quieter, and your technique ought be able to make them balance each other....

 

Of course, I spent years playing 'flat' drums so I kinda had to kick my bassdrum VERY hard. But it makes me laugh when guys toss two large pillows into a bassdrum, and then wonder why it seems quiet.

 

Originally posted by pconn171 This is funny because I read an article on ear protection a few years back and the bass drum only clocked in at 110dB at the drummer's ears and the snare drum at over 125dB. I guess they should've had someone with good technique do the study so that the results would be more accurate. Oddly enough, the toms were lower than the snare and louder than the bass, just like my set. Strange? Where's the class that teaches you how to make all of your drums the same volume? Oh yeah, I hate muffling on bass drums by the way. I like my drums to sound like drums, not carboard boxes.

 

[Chris_NY]

Yea your right about trying to work without the headset at least at first. It makes sense what your saying. I was thinking another thing that probably contributes to this adaptation issue with me is that the Edrums always had some sort of reverb on them or various other effect. I don't think any of the kits on the module are totally dry. The biggest issue I am having is my timing is all off especially on the hi-hats. I have stopped trying to play and reverted to just tapping out rhythems on the hi-hats along with the metronome to try and re-adjust my technique and gain back some timing.

[Chris_NY]

Hey just wanted to thank everyone for the suggestions and give an update.

 

On the Hi-hats I think it was a combination of my technique and placement of the hats themselves. I just sat down and tried placing the hats in every possible location that seemed even a little comfortable. It might sound dumb but where the stand is located directly seems to affect how your foot rests on the pedal. (controlling how much you choke the cymbals) this directly effects sound. The other thing is that placement seems (at least for me) to affect how my stick hits the hats. It dramatically changes tone for me and even how well I can keep steady rhythem.

 

On the BD I went with a 4" port on the reso side and I took out the pillow and put in a couple of socks just hanging over the center inside on the beater side. This seems to give me the same tone as with the pillow but louder. (much louder) and I get more beater bounce. Not too much but just enough to make me be able to do better BD patterns. Thanks so much to the person who suggested that. I still may go for a better head perhaps the PS or the Aquarian. I can imagine that will make it sound tons better. I can hardly wait !