Drummers Make Better Musicians?

[sherman22]

Not Apples, Not Oranges, It's musician ship. Drumming requires a lot of fine motor skills, also, you might not realize it, we as drummers do move our feet on the pedal as we play, its not so stationary, we do deal with a lot of dynamics with the foot pedal. I happen to think that piano does require a lot of foot finesse. But come on.

[sherman22]

Quite frankley, I think that Piano is quite a percussive instrument in the way you play, and phrase and speak with the instrument, also the tecniqal movement of the piano as an instrument has some percussive qualities. I think drummers can learn so much from playing the piano. I mean, it changes how your mind thinks. When you apply things from piano, guitar, and definitly bass, to the drums, you start to almost sing with them. Drums are a a very musical instrument. I think of them that way at least. Its not a drum, Im playing notes, phrases, creating atmosphere, we should not sell ourselves short here.

[the DW]

Originally posted by sherman22 ...we should not sell ourselves short here.

OK.

[sherman22]

Nice

[ArtVandelay]

I think anyone who reaches a level of virtuosity on their instrument is just as good in his/her own way as someone who reaches a level of virtuosity on another instrument.

For example, think of someone like Steve Vai. It's well know he can play the crap out of a guitar. But his rhythmic sense is impeccable and he can play all kinds of odd meters and polyrhythms - more than most drummers can fathom.

I think you have to compare apples-to-apples and if you're comparing people who play different instruments, then compare people who have a similar level of aptitude.

Anyhow, I don't think there's a definitive answer. I will agree with this though:

Drum are all about time and timing. In order to play in a band and fit in you need to have good time - on any instrument. An amateur drummer probably has decent time whereas an amateur guitarist (or whatever) is less likely to have decent time. As a result, drummers, by the nature of the instrument, are probably better prepared for a band situation than other musicians - but this doesn't include anything about personal style since many young drummers are prone to overplaying and that's nearly as bad a s not having good timing.

[ArtVandelay]

Originally posted by sherman22 Not Apples, Not Oranges, It's musician ship. Drumming requires a lot of fine motor skills, also, you might not realize it, we as drummers do move our feet on the pedal as we play, its not so stationary, we do deal with a lot of dynamics with the foot pedal. I happen to think that piano does require a lot of foot finesse. But come on.

 

 

To me that just means the drums are a more "athletic" instrument. Music is about making something that souds good to someone. That can certainly be accomplished without being an athletic drummer.

[sherman22]

Were not running four minute miles here, but I see your point. Also I agree with you, virtuosity comes in all shapes and forms. Steve Vai, you said, most definitly, I think theres virtuosity in politics, business, and all aspects of art. Medicine very much in my opinion has its fair share of virtuosos. I think we can agree on the wide aray of skills needed to be a virtuoso in anything, especially drumming, its not all timing though, but it sure helps when applying the concept to other areas of musicianship. Drumming is art just as much as timing, but timing can't hurt.

[manoeuver]

The idea that drummers automatically make better musicians is utterly without merit, completely false, and probably the result of an inferiority complex.

However, I'll say with great certainty that Musicians make better Drummers.

[sherman22]

never once did I say that drummers AUTOMATICALLY make better musicians, but I am speaking figuritively. I agree with your right to disagree, but no need to insult me. I do not have an inferiority complex, I am smart, young, good looking, wealthy, and could probobly whoop your ass. But hey, we all got opinions here.

[manoeuver]

Originally posted by sherman22 never once did I say that drummers AUTOMATICALLY make better musicians,

 

 

ok. you may disregard my post then. I'm standing by it, tho.

 

As far as whooping my ass goes, keep in mind I have Lion Heads for hands. and may I borrow $500K if you're so wealthy, pretty please.

[FitchFY]

Originally posted by T Hofmann However, I'll say with great certainty that Musicians make better Drummers.

Now THAT'S the most accurate statement made on this forum today!

[manoeuver]

Originally posted by FitchFY Now THAT'S the most accurate statement made on this forum today!

stop whining!

[scarecrowbob]

Originally posted by sherman22 Quite frankley, I think that Piano is quite a percussive instrument in the way you play, and phrase and speak with the instrument, also the tecniqal movement of the piano as an instrument has some percussive qualities. [....]

 

 

A piano is, by definition, a percussion instrument, just like a violin is a member of the string family or a saxamphone is part of the reed family of instruments.

[ulank]

Originally posted by sherman22 melody without proper timing is just bad.

Of course, I can also fart in perfect 4/4 time and that's no better than a good melody played with poor timing. Trust me.

I agree with THoffman for the most part. The fact that a person has talent on multiple instruments has little to do with their ability to drum and much more to do with their inherent abilities as musicians.

That being said, knowledge of any instrument offers different and unique benefits to being a well-rounded musician. Personally, I think piano translates the best to understanding music and executing it all-around. It combines percussive elements with melodic and harmonic elements. It requires independence and coordination, the ability to hold down a bass line or chord progression while playing a melody on top. Minus the actual beat of a drum, the piano is the closest thing to a one man band. Of course, the piano is also laid out about as simple as it can get. Each note shows up once, and they're all laid out in a nice straight line for you. Pretty easy to visualize what's going on which makes it the ideal "starter" instrument IMO. You get a taste of EVERYTHING with piano.

With drums, unless you're playing a la Terry Bozio, the melodic and harmonic aspect is void, which me thinks is kind of a big part of music. Sure, timing is everything, but without melody no one's gonna give a {censored} that you can keep a beat; they'll just be wondering when the hell the song's gonna start!

Guitar also offers a unique challenge. Unlike piano, the same notes appear multiple times on various parts of the neck and you can move both vertically and horizontally to get to the same note. That makes it much more difficult to visualize. Physically, it requires more precision, fine motor skills. Forget the pedal stomping. Chances are if the guitarist is tap-dancing on a bunch of pedals then he sucks at actually playing the guitar!

I started on piano when I was a wee lad and picked up guitar when I was 11. I'm self-taught on drums and tend to think my timing was fairly solid before I sat down behind the kit. My experience in piano and guitar helped me enough in that regard that my endeavor into drumming simply required enhancing my coordination. But the internal clock was there from learning other instruments. {censored}, I remember having to count the tempo while playing piano and using a metronome and all that. IMO, the greatest thing I gained out of my collective endeavor into multiple instruments was BIG EARS. That didn't come from drumming or guitar or piano alone, but the combination of knowing a little bit about all three.

Bottom line, there are plenty of drummers who are musical wastes of space and plenty of guitarists/keyboardists who are fantastic musicians (not singers though, they all suck. ).

[manoeuver]

that was exactly what I was thinking, and was far too lazy to type.

I salute you and your astute grasp of musicianship.

[Drumming4Him]

Originally posted by T Hofmann stop whining!

 

 

 

 

*I had to Google his last name.

[manoeuver]

I'm a cop you idiot!

[WillyRay]

Originally posted by T Hofmann I'm a cop you idiot!

 

 

"First... I would like to get to know you."

 

"Um... Ok..."

 

"Who is your daddy, and what does he do?"

[ulank]

Originally posted by T Hofmann that was exactly what I was thinking, and was far too lazy to type. I salute you and your astute grasp of musicianship.

Thanks. Of course, talk is cheap. Now I gotta go rock out on my synthax drummatar. m/:mad:m/

[WillyRay]

Originally posted by ulank Thanks. Of course, talk is cheap. Now I gotta go rock out on my synthax drummatar. m/:mad:m/

I would LOVE to get my hands on that thing... even just for a few minutes!

/w

[mparsons]

Musicians make better Drummers.

In my opinion, being a good musician is having the MENTAL parts of music down. Melody, harmony, timing, etc. The physical parts, such as the finger dexterity needed to play guitar or the coordination to play drums, is what makes a person a good guitarist or drummer.

I have a pretty good grasp on musicianship from playing guitar. Those mental skills translate onto the drums pretty fluidly.

But DAMN the coordination is crazy ( I have trouble counting quarter notes on the hats. 8th notes are much easier )

[ulank]

Originally posted by WillyRay I would LOVE to get my hands on that thing... even just for a few minutes! /w

Yeah, that thing be WHACKED!

[ulank]

Originally posted by mparsons In my opinion, being a good musician is having the MENTAL parts of music down.

BAZING!

[TimeKeeper310]

Originally posted by sherman22 Quite frankley, I think that Piano is quite a percussive instrument in the way you play, and phrase and speak with the instrument, also the tecniqal movement of the piano as an instrument has some percussive qualities. I think drummers can learn so much from playing the piano. I mean, it changes how your mind thinks. When you apply things from piano, guitar, and definitly bass, to the drums, you start to almost sing with them. Drums are a a very musical instrument. I think of them that way at least. Its not a drum, Im playing notes, phrases, creating atmosphere, we should not sell ourselves short here.

I have seen the piano referred to, as a 'percussion' instrument, as the strings in the piano, are 'struck' with the hammers....

I also play piano...a bit of bass guitar, and spent 4 years as lead vocalist in a metal/hard rock outfit!!

p.s......played a bit of triangle, also!!!

[RumStik]

Well, you asked for it....sort of...

In the context of learning to play any instrument, (and face it, no matter how good you are, if you're not still trying to improve, your overall musicianship is at peril), one of the goals must be mastery of the physical movements required. Stroking sticks n pedals, plucking, fingering, embrechure control are all bodily elements of playing. As a beginner, controlling these body movements is a mental function...a function of the thinking center. To develop proper technique, (something I may have yet to do myself), requires thought, however the thinking center on its own would be doomed to inefficiency when controlling these movements.

Mastery of Physical Movement...
As the thinking center's push to improve continues, and patterns of movement are repeated, this triggers a natural learning process in the moving center. The moving center's learning engine is repetition...exercise...

As one practices, the movements become more mechanical, less though-dependent, and more efficient...due to this learning of the moving center.

Imagine yourself hurrying to descend a flight of stairs, (perhaps someone is chasing you). If the thinking center were in charge of this bodily process, and your quick steps were dependent on its formative brand of thought, you'd have no chance. You can really haul ass down those stairs, though...because the moving center is processing what you see in front of you, along with a healthy dose of adrenalin, compliments of the emotional center. Formative thought, (thinking center function), is not required at all to actuate the body's mechanics. Besides, in a case like this, the thinking center has its hands full winding up the emotional center, (a function in which thinking center is highly proficient).

So as you see, the three centers can work together to produce an optimum result, each performing a function at which it accels. When the practicing musician realizes a state of pure right-work of centers during performance, the result is virtuosity. On rare occasions, after some time in a state of virtuosity, higher centers may get involved and produce Art. (Yes there are more than 3 centers, but our daily lives are typically lived out in the lower 3. The Higher Emotional and Higher Thinking centers might be responsible for acts that are seemingly miraculous. There is no higher moving center...your lower center is already capable of driving your body past its limits. A higher moving center might easily kill.)

So, in practice, the principle might go: The thinking center, fueled by the emotional center's reactions to already exiting music, performers, and/or events drives the body through the movements necessary to operate the instrument while researching and implementing...repeating and refining. Through this process, the moving center gradually learns and takes control of the bodily movements, which continue to become finer with further repetition. If/when the movement becomes purely moving center function, perceived "skill" increases. "Purity" in this regard is probably a stretch...most humans I know would have to settle for something closer to..."mostly."

The objective of maximum moving center control is advantageous, particularly for drummers, because it enables the symbiotic relationships between centers. When the thinking center no longer has to focus on technique or bodily actuation, it is now free to do what it does well, analyze. The moving center is capable of great things, but it must be driven...fueled and steered by products of other centers. In a musical performance, the thinking center is ideally focused on the "math" ...timing ...dynamics ...the thinking center processes these quickly to affect the drive of the moving center. (The actual formative processing of information necessary for hand/eye coordination, and for that matter, 'ear/hand' coordination, is a correct and reliable thinking center function.)

So into this mix of harmonious functions, ideally, enters the emotional center with one of its core strengths...interpretation. While functioning as the wheel man for the moving center, the thinking center makes steering decisions by processing input...from everywhere. The other musicians...the click track...the mood of the piece...that girl's form when the lights hit a certain way... But more accurately, the steering decisions are based on reaction to these inputs. The function of reaction is where the emotional center...lives. It reacts to everything, and almost literally "tells the thinking center what to think"...based on reaction. Emotional center reactions are the starting point of the processes that ultimately decide which note to play, which drum or cymbal to hit, how to execute the attack, and how to govern the decay.

I have no idea how to end this, (obviously, I could go on...), except to say that technically, what I've said here isn't "theory." Nor did I think it up myself. There are entire systems of knowledge, some even considered "religions" that have basis in the mastery of physical movement/position/task for the particular purpose of harmonizing centers, (whether they know it or not).

Cheers everyone.