Members smartinez1984 Posted March 1, 2004 Members Share Posted March 1, 2004 I initially posted a thread seeking advice and/or suggestions on this topic. In a nutshell: I am the leader of a praise & worship team for a small church and have just recently (over the last 6 months) began to assemble the musicians. One of the musicians is a young lad of 16 who has been struggling to learn to play keyboard. I've taken the time to write down some of the songs that we play with chords strategically placed over the words. Little by little he's come to learn the chords of the songs I write but he has shown no signs of being able to improvise, hear chord changes, etc. The last time I posted it seemed to be the general consensus that maybe a little more time was needed before making a true assessment of his capabilities. So, four months have gone by and there really has been no progress. One interesting thing has struck me the most. Our bass player purchased a nice recording system that we've been using to record our rehearsals and, on playback, I've confirmed something that I thought I was hearing while we were playing. The keyboardist has no sense of timing! In other words, the strking of the keyboards is sometimes just slightly off to, way too often, way off! We'll play a chord progression and he'll either be way too fast or way to slow. So, now a new question arises: Is timing something that can be taught or learned???? Please help! I need to know if there comes a time when I can say definitively that there are those who simply don't have the talent necessary to play an instrument. Any thoughts? Thanks! -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members murphmusik Posted March 1, 2004 Members Share Posted March 1, 2004 Timing is essential...let alone knowing when to change chords and basically play a song. Does this person practice on their own? If not, then I'd enforce it.But if so....If it were me, I'd tell the keyboard player that he or she is all done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 1, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 1, 2004 Yea, sort of what I thought as well. He does practice on his own, or so he tells me. Sigh... toughie... I may have failed to mention that he's related to me, his Dad is really pushing him to play, etc. ... -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members billsworld Posted March 1, 2004 Members Share Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by smartinez1984 Yea, sort of what I thought as well. He does practice on his own, or so he tells me. Sigh... toughie... I may have failed to mention that he's related to me, his Dad is really pushing him to play, etc. ... -Samson Does this young man really have an interest in playing, or is he being pushed to do so without having any interest in it himself? Would it be possible to drop his instrument way down in teh mix so as to hide his deficiencies while still permitting him to practice and appear on stage with the group? I ask because I know that particularly with praise bands, you don't want to tell someone who is interested in playing that they can't do so. Some of the other things to consider I may have missed out on in the earlier discussion, so forgive me if I'm asking you to rehash something that's already been covered. Is he the only keyboard in the group, and what kind of parts is he being asked to cover? I know that in my sister's praise band, they have 2 keyboard players, one who covers basic piano parts, and a second who just plays synth and string pads to fill in holes. If you have a piano, or a strong rythmn guitar, you could try giving him simple pad type parts that don't rely so much on strict timing. Of course, you may already be doing that, in which case I'll just shut up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpiderFingers Posted March 2, 2004 Members Share Posted March 2, 2004 I'm a guitar & piano teacher. I was always told ANYONE can play they just need to learn. In my 16 years of teaching I have to STRONGLY disagree about that. Some should just try tennis or golf man. I"m being serious. I have had some students with the same thing. No sense of rhythm or timing. I have tried many ways of doing it & I"m a pretty good teacher. I even tell my students "If you can't learn from me try tennis or golf". Some things to think about 1.) is he taking piano lesson anywhere? I mean has he taken the initiative in trying to better HIMSELF? 2.) if he hasn't then I would just sack him. 3.) another thing to think about, I come from a church where the praise & worship team was REALLY good. Our pastor was a guitar player (I even blessed him with a $1,200 Takamineonce) & he has a keen sense of music so he DEMANDS good musicians. He HATES when praise & worship teams sound bad. He even preached on that once. He said that old saying "good enough for gospel" should NOT apply in the church. If your'e playing for THE KING you should do YOUR BEST. That does not mean taking the attention for yourself or nothing but you should play to where you respect him. I myself was asked to play but turned it down as it was hard for me to do because of ME. I had too much ego & if I was doing praise & worship it was going to be about HIM (God) not me. WHen I finally got my heart right they wouldn't have me because I was teaching guitar & they felt I was teaching "devils music" go figure. Anyways if the kid is not cutting it & making any attempt at bettering himself sack him & tell him to take lessons & try out again in 6 months time. Chances he won't. If he DOES then you might have something. Don't bring shame on The Lord because someone is too lazy to practice or simply NOT CALLED to the ministry of praise & worship. I won't even go into that one on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 2, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 2, 2004 This young man is the only keyboardist we have and there are political and/or personal battles that I struggle with in making a decision. I feel ALMOST convinced that this young man doesn't have what it takes (desire, passion, talent, calling, etc.) to be a keyboardist, or musician for that matter, but I have a hard time figuring out how I would go about asking that he step down, even if just for a short stint. Here's why: Everyone in the church (remember that it's a small church, at least for now) feels that he's made great strides. That's because he knows the chords and because they don't "hear" the nuances of what's happening. My son (drummer) has a hard time because it often sounds like his timing is off simply because the keys are off. Anyway, his mom and dad think he's doing great, they make comments like "man, he's come a long way", "he sounds so much better", etc. Pastor & family think he's doing great, all these folk who don't really have an ear for music. I want to put the best that I can out there, I believe God deserves as much. I would have a hard time explaining to the church folk WHY I made the decision that I did. Maybe I just need some courage to realize that I may be pushed away if I take that step. By the way, I have a couple of songs that we recorded during a rehearsal that gives a perfect example of the "timing" issues I'm speaking of. You can also here the robotic sound of the keys during stretches of the songs. These occur where I gave him chords and then told him to rehearse and try to find "fills" for these spaces. No such thing. Is there a way to post this? The two songs are within one file that exceeds the size limitations of posting, I believe. Any recommendations? Thanks, -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zookie Posted March 2, 2004 Members Share Posted March 2, 2004 Given the exigencies you've listed I'd start by mixing him down and then reward him with a louder mix if he improves. Is he working off sheet music? One of the hardest thing for a new musician to do is to "get off the page" and start playing music by feel, intuition and in the moment. If he's standing there counting 1-2-3-4 in his head and not listening to the rest of the band that would throw him off. If he is standing there with the sheet music 3 inches from his nose, then you might try encouraging him to listen and play along to recordings. If it's understood that this band is for all levels, then you may have to suffer the occasional less-than-accomplished player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpiderFingers Posted March 2, 2004 Members Share Posted March 2, 2004 BOTTOM LINE at the bottom of the issue is this who would you rather have to be accountable to him & the congregation of God? It seems like a twisted version of idolatry. You fear having to tell the people regardless of what disrespect & irreverence that might be to Him who shed His blood for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 2, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 2, 2004 Wow... that's pretty deep... Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and see how it goes. I figure I'm going to have a chat with the other band members, probably my pastors, and make a mention to them up front on what is taking place. If they tell me that I can't remove him from the band then I guess it's time for me to step down and let someone else take the reigns. Thanks for all your insight. -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members One_Dude Posted March 3, 2004 Members Share Posted March 3, 2004 I was in a similiar situation with the church music group I played in several years back. For 6 or 7 years we were just a duo; a great Irish tenor singing and playing acoustic guitar, and me playing bass and mandolin (depending on the song). Along comes another guitar player who just gushes with enthusiasm. This new guitar player while enthusiastic in his playing really had little feel for the song. He frequently played quite hard at points where a softer feel was called for, and seemed to have only one strumming pattern no matter what song or tempo was involved. The worst part however, was that he was an absolute terrible singer; sharp or flat most of the time with emphasis in the wrong places etc. Quite honestly, I was embarrassed to perform with him. The other member of our original duo was the person in charge; it was really up to him to talk to this new guy and either ask him not to sing or to take more guitar lessons and concentrate on the feel of the music. The leader is just a great guy and could not bring himself to say anything to the new player. After a few months there was no improvement; if anything it got worse. The new guy's confidence rose since he apparently thought he was really adding to the performance. Since our leader would not deal with the situation, I also chose not to confront the new guy. Eventually, my participation in the group became less and less until I finally quit. A few years have passed and the new guy has moved on to another church. I have tried several times to rekindle the duo arrangement we once had but the leader always cancels at the last minute. Maybe he holds me responsible for leaving him to deal with the situation; I don't know, but he never did deal with it. The new guy left only after a new church (of the same religion) opened closer to his home. I'm about to start playing with a new church group that includes several people. I only know two of the people involved in this new group. They approached me and asked me to join them, so we'll see how it goes. I think one of the difficult things in music is telling someone else that it is just not working with them in the group. It seems especially difficult when it's an all volunteer situation. Good luck, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 3, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2004 John, thanks for sharing your story; it's nice to hear that I'm not the only one who's ever experienced this. I mean, I don't wish this on anyone but at least someone else has been through this. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do and, interestingly enough, I may end up doing what you did, just walk away. I just don't want to be responsible for killing the dreams, enthusiasm, etc. of all involved, not directly anyway. I can always pick up and start elsewhere. I keep thinking this wouldn't be as hard if it didn't involve deep family ties. So, yes, there will be changes soon, I just have to figure out exactly which bullet I'm going to bite... Thanks again! -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hitmanjohnnyd Posted March 3, 2004 Members Share Posted March 3, 2004 Being a former worship leader for 12 years. I would give you this advise. It is more difficult to remove someone from a worship team than it is to bring them on the worship team. So never bring a musicain on that isn't, at least, at the same level in musicianship as the rest of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 3, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2004 Sigh... had I only thought about that before I said "yes". Funny thing about experience; more often than not it teaches exactly what and what not to do... whether we learn from it is a whole different matter. Thanks! -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hitmanjohnnyd Posted March 3, 2004 Members Share Posted March 3, 2004 I just don't want to be responsible for killing the dreams, enthusiasm, etc. of all involved, not directly anyway. I can always pick up and start elsewhere. I keep thinking this wouldn't be as hard if it didn't involve deep family ties. Samson, If you don't deal with this and you quit, you will be helping no body. Life is full of failure. That's how we learn.... by making mistakes and having people in our lives who care enough to be honest with us. Also, as a leader, if you are going to quit everytime things get tough, you will not be a very successful leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 3, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2004 Originally posted by hitmanjohnnyd Samson,If you don't deal with this and you quit, you will be helping no body. Life is full of failure. That's how we learn.... by making mistakes and having people in our lives who care enough to be honest with us. Also, as a leader, if you are going to quit everytime things get tough, you will not be a very successful leader. Well said; thanks for the advice. What's the worse that can happen if I make ask the keyboard player to step down? They ask me to step down, right? You're right, that would be better than me quitting! Thanks! -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members supermads Posted March 5, 2004 Members Share Posted March 5, 2004 I have played in different bands for a while now. Guitar. In the beginning I figured my timing was perfect, until we recorded some songs in a studio. I had to take a lot of takes to get it right. Live it was'nt a problem, but then you don't hear it very clear, if your timing is bad. I asked our drummer to rehears with me. When we took a break rehearsing with the band, me and him played the songs over and over. He is pretty good and teaches people to play drums, so he could tell me what I had to listen to, tempo of hi-hat, beats of the bassdrum etc. I also learned to play the drums and percussion. Now it's not a problem at all, and the timing is never a problem with me, actually, people tell me how 'tight' my playing is. So there is allways hope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrjones Posted March 10, 2004 Members Share Posted March 10, 2004 I believe that people can learn better timing, but most practise systems don't emphasize timing at all... But it doesn't sound to me like timing is really the problem... it sounds to me like the keyboard player is not serious about playing... As was said I think in the earlier thread, ask the keyboard player to take a break from the worship team and work privately, with you if you have time, and if possible, with another private teacher as well... if he's away from the worship team, it may show that he truly does or does not have the drive to really learn. Some people progress more slowly than others, and try to make it clear that it's not that he's no good, it's that he's the limiting factor in 'the band'... it's not fair to THEM if he stays... but that if he works hard, he might be able to catch-up... I would not quit the director job unless you're asked... and make it clear that you're trying to make this team the best they can be, and that they can be much better without being held-back by the improving, but still mediocre skills of this keyboard player... they keyboard player gets to focus on improvement, and the worship team gets to move forward at a faster pace... win-win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 10, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2004 Well said and I'll definitely take that into consideration. We have rehearsal again this evening so I'll make mention of that to him. One thing I'd like to try is to get the CD that we just recorded, sit down with him so that we can listen together, and then I can point out the timing concerns. Maybe this will help clarify to him the problem that he's having up to this point. I have requested that he spend time on his own with a true instructor or someone who is a true keyboardist. I don't consider myself a teacher of the keys, if you know what I mean. I also requested that he begin to learn standard notation; I actually requested this of all the other members as well. Fortunately, the drummer and bassist both participated in band during their school years so that have a solid foundation. I am beginning to do the self-training as well, not only as an incentive to the keyboardist, but also to help me in my future musical endeavors. If he's not willing to undertake the requests that I've made I can then assume his heart is not really into it. I'm with you, I still don't believe he is really wanting to do this... but we'll see. Many thanks! -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RiseAndfall Posted March 15, 2004 Members Share Posted March 15, 2004 Slightly off notes are cool man. Just tell him to hit what sounds good and not to worry if he screws up and you have a FUNKAY NEW SOUND! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 23, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 23, 2004 Well, just thought I would update, in case you all were interested... I went ahead and decided that the keyboard player just wasn't going to work out. As I mentioned before, he wasn't showing any enthusiasm, desire, effort, etc. and so I met with him last night in preparation to dismiss him. I decided to take a different approach than the last time when I was simply asking him questions in hopes that he would respond with honest answers. I told him that I was going to make a statement to him and that I wanted him to tell me if I was right on, in the ball park, or way off. He said "cool" so I told him "I don't believe you really want to be here". He turned away and started to say something then he just turned to me and said "you're right on". Turns out he really wanted to quit the LAST time we spoke but his dad had asked him to stay in the band. So that was the easy part. His dad has totally taken this personally, he's enraged with his son... I'll skip the details. Suffice it to say that the battle is barely starting. But, with all that said, I am at peace with my decision and I firmly believe that this will work out better for all parties involved. Thanks to all for your comments, suggestions, and for simply listening... -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members One_Dude Posted March 23, 2004 Members Share Posted March 23, 2004 Thanks for the update; it's always interesting to see how situations resolve. Sounds like things are settled with the music group, and all that remains are some father-son issues. I have witnessed fathers trying to live extemporaneously through their sons, but usually in sports or career choices, never in a band or music group situation. Perhaps the issue is that the father thinks the son never sees anything through; in any case that's something for them to work out. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted March 24, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 24, 2004 All in all this has been a great learning experience for me from the perspective of leading a band. I will definitely be more careful about how who and why I allow new band members. I understand that there will always be new challenges and I will always be faced with hard decisions but some can definitely be avoided, if the proper steps are taken in the beginning. Once again, many thanks to all for sharing your experiences and providing your insight. That said, anyone know of a good keyboard player looking for a place to call home????? -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emuhumper74 Posted March 24, 2004 Members Share Posted March 24, 2004 If the father is so interested in it tell him to pony up and start practicing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members buzzcut Posted April 1, 2004 Members Share Posted April 1, 2004 It's kind of sad when parents push their children into doing things if their heart is not in it. I'm not talking about chores or homework, etc but rather pushing their kids to do things that perhaps they wish they could do or had done. How can either the parent or child be happy in that situation? I hope they get it resolved and both father and son will be happier in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smartinez1984 Posted April 2, 2004 Author Members Share Posted April 2, 2004 It may take a while but I believe it will all turn out ok in the long run. The father appears to be accepting the change little by little so we're hoping and praying he's accepting the change. The son definitely appears happier and I'm really feeling good about that. -Samson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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