Classical & non-classical

[Mamma Cat]

I wasn't sure how to name this topic, I'm not even sure how to explain what I want to ask cuz it's all pretty abstract, but I'll try anyway.

 

This question is mostly about female voices because the difference between an opera voice and a "normal" voice are more obvious. So, how do you get this nicely carried, breath supported tone on high notes, without having that "opera" ring to it? (I'm not sure if there's a name for that, but if someone knows it, please tell me)

 

Let me try to give examples.

 

My Heart Will Go On by Celine Dion

Obviously, she's a good singer, speaking strictly from a technical point of view (the rest is not important for the topic). She has good breath support, a well shaped tone, her voice is full even on the top end of her range, she has enough strength etc etc.

 

Now here's the same song by Katherine Jenkins, a classical singer (not a very good one if you ask me, but nevermind):

Same song, also technically well done, but rather...dry, IMO.

 

So. When I sing classical, I go to about G5-G#5 on a good day, F#5 I have with no problem whatsoever. When I sing pop-rock etc, my throat cringes at the sight of D#5, my tone is poor and I basically belt it out. So what do I do? I refuse to believe that the only correct technique is the classical one. Obviously singers like Celine, Whitney, Barbra Streisand, Aretha Franklin, Leona Lewis (my recent favorite) etc have the chops. How do I sing without belcanto?

 

 

Hope this is clear enough, if not I will try to explain it better.

 

Thankies

[Mamma Cat]

Wow, was I so unclear?

[SevenString]

Remember, this isn't Open Jam or the Political Party forum. This place moves in slow-motion.

 

Also, you're asking a bunch of (mostly) non-classical males who probably think that "coloratura" is found somewhere next to "burnt umber" and "goldenrod" in a crayon box.

 

And since I'm not a female OR a voice teacher, I can't answer your question properly either.

[JonPaulP]

Hey! I like Katherine Jenkins. She's hot.

 

 

But seriously, I think the only difference is Katherine adds more vibrato on purpose to make it classically-styled and distinctive from pop.

 

Celine's rendition is more breathy, a little nasally and relaxed - which are characteristics of the modern pop style.

 

When I sing pop, my throat hurts, ouch. I hear some of the pop singers use Speech-Level-Singing. I guess they use the mix between the chest and head voice for the higher notes.

[ChrisAlgoo]

It sort of sounds like the distinction between full voice in males, and a male falsetto. I think the two pieces are being produced with different hardware, so to speak. The difference between the two ranges is less pronounced in women, but there is a difference.

 

Of course this could be spectacular in its wrongity. I'll ask my teacher this Wednesday for you, though! She's an opera soprano :-)

[JonPaulP]

I think it could be that Celine is using head voice? I use head voice more when doing pop style and chest voice for classical.

 

But, I'm not a chick so I don't know how they do it.

[rini]

there's a couple things you can do:

 

1) increase your range of your chest voice; however, your range is prolly fine the way it is. i don't know of any song in pop music that goes above F#5. i can't really think of any mezzo/belter showtunes that goes above that, unless you count green finch and linnet bird from sweeney todd, or any other piece written specifically for sopranos (light in the piazza, is a great example).

 

2) smooth out the pressagio. the pressagio is the break between your chest voice and head voice. for this, you'd need a professional voice teacher to show you how to do it. i'd only just started taking lessons for this particular issue right before the money ran out. i can tell you that you should work on descending scales, however.

 

it's a real problem for women when you get to the upper registers. unless you want to sound like a dog whistle like mariah carrey, there's no real way getting around that particular sound on the high-end. you can stretch your chest voice range, but i'm thinking you're prolly at your limit. most women don't get much above F5, no matter how talented they are. what you do hear, however, is a smooth pressagio into their head voice, where the difference between the two sounds is less noticeable.

[Mamma Cat]

Thanks everyone

 

Rini, I think this might be it. I would just need a teacher that knows how to do this. All of my teachers are classical singers and when I asked this, no one had a clue, or they just say it's "shouting" and that this sort of singing damages the voice. I somehow don't think that's true.

[rini]

get a good musical theatre vocal coach. it could be that you are shouting, and not belting properly. belting has more to do with how the sound is produced inside your head and chest, than pushing it out, if that makes sense. you're using your head and chest as the sounding board to amplify the sound. it's also how your larnyx is located and what it's doing. it's _not_ about pushing more air out, like when you shout. in fact, you should use less air when belting than when you sing piano.

 

oh, and get a female vocal coach. males, with their inherently different larnyx and physiology, usually don't have this issue; hence, the "controversy" of belting and head v. chest voices. all that whargabbl is done by male vocal coaches.

[Mamma Cat]

Yeah, I once had a male teacher assigned to me by my music school and it SO didn't work out. Luckily, it lasted for a month or two only.

 

Could you elaborate the belting technique a bit more? I seem to be missing the basics here. Thanks.

[rini]

1) belting is a technique of singing to produce a specific sound. it may not even be loud, though frequently is. it can also be done at any note, not just high ones. but, we as stupid humans trained on star search, or american idol, or whatever, think that you need to belt on high notes.

 

2) you need excellent breath support to belt properly. really work on your diaphragmatic breathing.

 

3) you entire chest, shoulders and head should be loose and easy. they should never be tight or strained. if they are, you're doing it wrong. stop whatever you're doing.

 

4) vocal pedagogy is a funny field. it's one of those things where you either feel it, or you don't. and, the only way to learn it is by doing it. all i can say is that when you belt, it should be easy, easier than singing piano, for example. you should feel it reverberate through your chest and head. the production of the sound should be easy. it's just a matter of a different placement of your larnyx.

 

5) my best advice is to listen to a lot of music, especially show tunes. anything with bernadatte peters. listen to older shows, and stay away from new ones, as the trend in musical theatre is more towards higher, purer sopranos like kristen chenoweth and indina menzel (both of whom i loathe).

 

if you want an example of how _not_ to do it, listen to the original cast recording of phantom of the opera. sarah brightman is a mediocre classical singer, at best, and has a terrible pressagio. her technique is asstastic, too, all whiny, tight and tinny. she sounds like she's from long island when she sings, which is impressive since she's british.

 

wikipedia has a good article on belting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_(music)

 

other than that, practice practice practice. pay a lot of attention to how it _feels_ physically, worry about tone later. first and foremost, singing should never ever hurt or be uncomfortable.

[Mamma Cat]

Thank you so much!

[grace_slick]

Oh my goodness, Rini!!! I got told on here I sounded like Sarah Brightman!!!! AAAAAGH! I took it as a compliment but now I am questioning her and me! lol

 

Anyway, Cat, I understand your question, but unfortunately I don't have the answer either since I have the same "problem", though I've not actually reached the point yet where it actually IS a problem for me.

[rini]

*shrug* some people really like that high, whiny tone. i, for one, do not, at least not for an adult woman. i think singers like sarah brightman, idina menzel and kristen chenoweth (elphaba and galinda, respectively, from the original broadway production of "wicked") sound like 12 year old, skinny, white girl cheerleaders who got kicked in the proverbial gonads (if they had them).

 

considering the growing popularity of that sound, i'm in the minority. i'd rather an adult woman sound like an adult woman, and not a 12 year old.

 

YMMV

[Mamma Cat]

Sarah Brightman, as a classical singer, sucks big time. As a pop-singer, she can sell it as her unique style and that's fine, independently of whether I like it or not.

[Al Koehn]

This is a tough one to tackle with just words. First of all, the top teachers of the pop-rock-country stars (several of whom you mentioned) teach the same basic vocal techniques to all their students, pop or classical. Breathing, developing tone quality, extending the range, vibrato, etc are all taught using variations on techniques from the bel canto era combined with techniques based on today's much expanded knowledge of how the voice works, and is used. In short, the teachers of Celine, Barbara, Whitney, Elton, Steven Tyler, Martina, and Kenny Chesney .......... base their teaching on the same information, exercises and techniques as those they use with Katherine Jenkins, Josh Grobin, Beverly Sills or Placido Domingo....with some modifications.`

 

Over the years many students have come to me ( or have been sent by managers and labels) to be "un-classified". They were trying to sing pop, rock or country, but were trained as classical singers. I'm supposed to syphon the "classical" out of their voices, leaving all the good stuff that makes a pop singer in there. The first time this occurred I was at a loss. I really didn't know what to do. Since then, by trial and error, study, communication with many other voice teachers and just listening and noting the differences, I can now "un-classify" a singer with more ease.

 

So how do I go about changing a classical singer into a pop singer? First of all think about this: the human voice can actually change its quality, etc to fit the genre, but change from what...and how do we change it? Well, an opera singer would never use a nasal quality unless the character called for it, and even then it would probably sound like an opera singer using a nasal quality. Not like a down and dirty blues or country singer who uses this quality naturally. You seldom hear a well trained classical soprano using her chest voice. (Again there are exceptions) In fact many classical teachers insist that sopranos avoid the chest voice totally, and altos avoid the head voice. This simply can't be done by today's pop singers. The great operatic arias were written specifically for sopranos or altos, placing the tessitura of the song absolutely where the soprano will sound the best. (The "tessitura" is the area (notes) a particular voice can sing without strain or stress.) Todays songwriters couldn't care less about singers' tessitura unless they are writing for a specific singer.

 

STAY WITH ME HERE. I know this is a complicated post, but we're dealing with a very complicated question. (That's the teacher in me talking)

 

So let's get to some answers.

 

1. All singers can benefit greatly from vocal training as long as the teacher understands and appreciates the genre of music the student wants to sing. It's not the teachers job to try to change the genre, only to make it easier for you to become better at what you want to sing.

 

2. Although the techniques taught to pop-rock-country singers are similar to those taught to classical singers, there are some major differences: It's vital that the pop singer NOT over-pronounce vowels. One of the main differences between Katherine Jenkins' and Celene's interpretation of the song is that Katherine uses "pure" perfectly formed vowels. In pop music this inhibits the "feel" of the song, and as Mamma Cat puts it, her sound is "dry" There's a sameness in vocal quality throughout the entire song which is manly due to making every vowel perfect. Celene may sing "ya" instead of "you," or "ta" instead of "to". You get the idea.

Notice also that Katherine holds the ends of phrases much longer than Celine. Again, this is a "classical" trait. Pop music calls for shorter phrase endings, only occasionally holding the notes their full value.

I teach my students good vowel formation and rich, vibrant quality in the exercise part of the sessions. But I listen carefully to make sure that when they sing songs, they modify the vowels and quality to fit the genre and style. Classical teachers don't usually make that distinction and insist on perfect vowels no matter what type of music is being sung.

 

Notice how Celene uses a breathy tone throughout much of the song, building the intensity on choruses and at the end by adding power and more upper harmonics ("ring") ALL SINGERS SHOULD HAVE THE "RING" IN THEIR VOICES, and be able to call on it in varying degrees. The "ring" is actually upper harmonics in the voice which are mixed in so the sound can have more carrying power. punch and claim its own place in the mix. (How we develop the "ring" or "buzz" is stuff for another post, or you can learn it with a good teacher or a good recorded singing course.

 

3. Because of the very rich, "perfect" vowel sounds (and because the singer WANTS to sound classical) the classical singer develops a much more prevalent vibrato. This works well with these singers, but can be destructive to the style and feel of the pop singer. The vibrato should be present in the pop singer's voice, but cannot be allowed to get in the way of the creative style. Vibrato must be appropriate to the music you sing.

 

(By the way, if you have a big vibrato, stay back farther from the mic...that will calm the effect.)

 

4. Finally, to pull this all together, the biggest difference between the classical and pop singer is that they listen to and emulate other (good) singers who sing in similar genres. The best pop singers use good classical techniques, but don't let them get in the way of the music they are singing. In other words: learn good vocal techniques and then screw around with them in your songs. When Celene reaches the powerful final section of the song she is calling on much more of her "classical" quality (minus the perfect vowels) Just remember that she has the ability to kick your ass there because she studied with a great teacher.

 

5. Opera singers are trained to cover a large area without the help of a mic. Pop singers have a mic. There's no need to project like them. (And they often sing with a mic as if they were on stage.) Use your mic wisely. Let it work for you. Don't do its job by adding too much volume. You have an amp.

 

6. If you know exactly how you want to sound, classical voice training will help you achieve that. If you want to sound classical that's where you'll be. Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote a song in "South Pacific" which goes "You got to have a dream. If you don't have a dream, how you gonna make a dream come true?" Our version should go: "You got to have a concept. If you don't have a concept, how you gonna make a concept come true?"

 

Al

[jvardon]

ummm.......i feel ur pain....

when i sing in falsetto....i can easily make a much more pleasant sounding pop tone but i cant take it very far up in my range....it just thins out into breath but if i sing with a more classical tone then i can sing much higher and i dont get a breathy sound at all.....

[Mamma Cat]

Thank you very very much, Al! You've resolved many things unclear to me.

 

I will continue with my classical studies for some more time, cause there's so much knowledge to acquire there. However, I don't see myself in opera one day, so when the time comes, I'll turn my studies in another direction, and hopefully find a good teacher by then.