liability insurance for musicians-another brick in the wall of BS

[MartinC]

True, but people sue the deep pocket. A broke LLC isn't going to be pursued like a national chain or big promoter.

 

My group for example is an acoustic three-four piece. No lights to fall on anyone. No pa to damage anyone's sensitive ears. Of course there is a possibility that we could do something to someone to cause harm. But it's far more likely IMO that we would be sued for something that isn't our fault. Missing something from a gig. Idiot didn't look where he was going, or tramps through our setup and trips. Sexual harrasment maybe

 

My agent didn't offer any extra money to pay for this policy. He didn't mention it when I quoted the gig in question. He didn't say that in the future he'd sell my act for more dough to cover the extra expense. I go play a gig at City Hall in a city with a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars a year and I have to indemnify THEM?

 

 

 

Folks seem to think that if the venue has insurance, that it covers anything that happens, and that's the end of it. Legal liability isn't that simple, I'm afraid. You've got a venue with insurance to cover their own liability. It isn't going to extend to cover the liability of another party, like your band. Each entity has to cover their own exposure. The plaintiff lawyers will sue each party involved. The venue/promoter and their respective insurance is not going to defend you. As far as forming an LLC and collapsing it after you cause bodily injury or property damage to someone; that's all well and good, but it doesn't solve the problem that venues and promoters want to see proof that your entity is responsible enough to insure itself. I wouldn't tell a promoter, "Oh don't worry about us. We're hiding behind our LLC!" We shouldn't blame a promoter or venue from wanting proof of insurance. These are high risk situations. If a band causes bodily injury, the venue will be left holding the bag. Then their ability to maintain standard insurance rates diminishes.

[taco-man]

I go play a gig at City Hall in a city with a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars a year and I have to indemnify THEM?

Yes. As you said - deep pockets are a target. They just want to be indemnified for your actions. Their insurance covers their actions.

[toddkuen]

 

This is the best advice possible for anyone looking to incorporate their band. I may or may not presently be doing this in accordance with the 5th Ammendment.

 

 

From experience (not with music but a similar situation): make sure they don't have your actual names. All they need to do if the band is an LLC and they want to sue them is to put your actual names on the legal action along with the LLC and bamo - your screwed.

 

They can probably find your actual names if they try but it may thwart them to some degree if its not obvious who you are.

[MartinC]

All excellent points. Bottom line, the day is here when if your going to be doing gigs, you have to consider insurance. For some gigs, it's a deal breaker if you don't have it. And if you get sued, you'll be glad you have it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Deep pockets are the target, though plaintiff lawyers name all parties in a suit. The defense cost alone can be substantial - even in a frivolous lawsuit. No offense, but everyone, everywhere says this about their individual risk. "Oh, my pitbull is the friendliest pitbull ever!," etc. Unfortunately for you, to adequately underwrite a class of business, an insurer has to sort of lump everyone together to a degree. So although you consider yourself to be low-risk, you are also paying for the losses racked up by the idiots who stage dive onto patrons. Thus is the nature of transferring and spreading risk. There is some categorization though. Some insurers do try to weed out the riskiest classes, like rap. Yes. As you said - deep pockets are a target. They just want to be indemnified for your actions. Their insurance covers their actions.

 

[herbie d]

I carry insurance. Its not that big of a deal. I carry Liability, I carry a policy with a 250 deductible on equipment, (damage or theft) and workers comp. (yes, workers comp) I've had to use each of them more than once over the years, and what they paid out that I didn't have to pay, was a lot more than I paid in. My bundle costs about 850 a year.

I also have a business licence, and a Tax ID number.

[taco-man]

I carry insurance. Its not that big of a deal. I carry Liability, I carry a policy with a 250 deductible on equipment, (damage or theft) and workers comp. (yes, workers comp) I've had to use each of them more than once over the years, and what they paid out that I didn't have to pay, was a lot more than I paid in. My bundle costs about 850 a year. I also have a business licence, and a Tax ID number.

If you wouldn't mind, please share who your insurance carrier is.

[jwlussow]

We carry insurance. Look at it this way. You are a private contractor not an employee so you will not be covered by the bar's insurance. The bar's employees will be covered.

 

It really only takes one drunk or uncoordinated person to trip on the snake that you just ran to make you liable for the injury. If the people sue, they will sue everybody. That might include whoever manufactures the snake...and while they are at it they might as well sue the company that makes your car, guitar, drum....that's what lawyers do, especially if they smell blood (like a poorly placed snake).

 

Why wait assuming that you will be covered by the bar's insurance only to find out that since you are an independent contractor (admit it, you are) and not an employee, the bar will not cover you. Find good insurance that covers all the gear (in case of theft or accident) and liability. Oh, take it from me, your homeowners insurance will not cover losses unless you can prove that music is just a hobby. I had some gear stolen that was not covered because the band has a website. I was only going to a friend's place to jam but that didn't matter. Like it or not insurance can be that sister-in-law that you hate but have to put up with at family gatherings.

[Janx]

 

My agent didn't offer any extra money to pay for this policy. He didn't mention it when I quoted the gig in question. He didn't say that in the future he'd sell my act for more dough to cover the extra expense. I go play a gig at City Hall in a city with a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars a year and I have to indemnify THEM?

 

 

This begs the question, if he didn't mention, why didn't you. When expenses go up, a business either raises prices or finds other ways to reduce costs.

 

If a venue is going to insist on insurance, then they're going to have to pay for the premium as part of the fee.

 

The real trick is packaging it such that they think they are getting a pro band at a pro rate.

 

So you turn it from "dang it, we gotta have this stupid insurance" to "We're professionals, we're insured in case of an incident."

[MartinC]

Oh, believe me, I did much more than mention it. My view is if they want insurance, you know I don't have it, you expect me to buy it, that's going to affect the rate, period, end of story. I ended up doing gig and not having to buy it. Next gig will be a different story.

 

 

 

 

 

This begs the question, if he didn't mention, why didn't you. When expenses go up, a business either raises prices or finds other ways to reduce costs. If a venue is going to insist on insurance, then they're going to have to pay for the premium as part of the fee. The real trick is packaging it such that they think they are getting a pro band at a pro rate. So you turn it from "dang it, we gotta have this stupid insurance" to "We're professionals, we're insured in case of an incident."

 

[Philbigtime]

 

This begs the question, if he didn't mention, why didn't you. When expenses go up, a business either raises prices or finds other ways to reduce costs. If a venue is going to insist on insurance, then they're going to have to pay for the premium as part of the fee. The real trick is packaging it such that they think they are getting a pro band at a pro rate. So you turn it from "dang it, we gotta have this stupid insurance" to "We're professionals, we're insured in case of an incident."

 

 

 

Wow, reading through this whole thread made me resentful towards insurance companies and the veunes that would have you pay them. But that's a realisitic, and quite astute, take on the whole thing.

[taco-man]

 

This begs the question, if he didn't mention, why didn't you. When expenses go up, a business either raises prices or finds other ways to reduce costs. If a venue is going to insist on insurance, then they're going to have to pay for the premium as part of the fee. The real trick is packaging it such that they think they are getting a pro band at a pro rate. So you turn it from "dang it, we gotta have this stupid insurance" to "We're professionals, we're insured in case of an incident."

 

 

If the premium is $500 per year, and you play 20 gigs per year, that's $25 per gig. That $25 should be pretty easily negotiated.

[taco-man]

 

Wow, reading through this whole thread made me resentful towards insurance companies and the veunes that would have you pay them. But that's a realisitic, and quite astute, take on the whole thing.

 

 

 

 

You may want to re-read the thread then, and consider plaintiff lawyers when you assess your resentment. If people weren't sue-happy we would have lower premiums and this wouldn't be as big of an issue.

 

When you get paid to do a gig, you're a business that contracts with other businesses. They expect you to act like a business-owning adult. Especially take a look at jwlussow's post. He has the business mentality.

 

It is ironic that insurance companies are disparaged for being greedy, but they are the ones lobbying for tort reform in legislatures.

[Philbigtime]

 

You may want to re-read the thread then, and consider plaintiff lawyers when you assess your resentment. If people weren't sue-happy we would have lower premiums and this wouldn't be as big of an issue. When you get paid to do a gig, you're a business that contracts with other businesses. They expect you to act like a business-owning adult. Especially take a look at jwlussow's post. He has the business mentality. It is ironic that insurance companies are disparaged for being greedy, but they are the ones lobbying for tort reform in legislatures.

 

 

 

I took your advice and re-read the thread, and I can say with 100% confidence that I still hate insurance companies.

[Janx]

it might also be worth blaming the juries that award big prizes to ridiculous suits.

 

How many millions was that spilled McD's coffee worth? How much was the actual injury worth? Once a lawyer spelled opportunity, he found a way to convince a jury that it was a bigger problem than some hot coffee and a clumsy customer.

[taco-man]

 

I took your advice and re-read the thread, and I can say with 100% confidence that I still hate insurance companies.

 

 

Well, you could always self-insure. Just put up between $250,000 and $1,000,000 of your own cash to guarantee against losses. You can do a cash guarantee with your state for your auto insurance too. Good luck with that.

[Rockman59]

ToneGrail said: So where can we get such insurance?

________________________________________________________________

I get mine thru the Musicians Union. I pay $250 per year for a 2 million dollar policy. You won't get a better deal than that anywhere....I know, I did a lot of research. Many companies wanted up to $2,000 for the same or less coverage.

[herbie d]

 

If you wouldn't mind, please share who your insurance carrier is.

 

 

Sorry it took a while to get back. Been tied up. Ah... It's called a bundle package, from Erie Insurance. Ah... 5 mil on liability, 20 thou on equip. I forget the % for workers comp. I carry health insurance for myself, but have been looking for a plan to include my Band Mates. (thats not in the bundle)

I've thought about lowering the ins on the equipment to get the price down a little. Workers comp is touchy. If I use a sound man or a sound company, and they don't have workers comp, I have to pay it. If I pay them cash out of my pocket, and don't show them on my taxes I can get around it, but then its considered income for the band and we pay taxes on it. Kinda painful some times.

[Saxman7]

 

________________________________________________________________ I get mine thru the Musicians Union. I pay $250 per year for a 2 million dollar policy. You won't get a better deal than that anywhere....I know, I did a lot of research. Many companies wanted up to $2,000 for the same or less coverage.

 

 

I looked into that as well. But isn't this policy only applicable on a union contracted gig, and does it cover only you, or will it cover your entire group, and what if all aren't union members? Those were the questions that others & I were skeptical about...

[Spacehog26]

I know things are different over here in the UK (thank God!) but my public liability insurance came as part of the package deal with my musical instrument insurance. Didn't cost much at all, and it's worth it for peace of mind.