Members Hektor* Posted January 29, 2004 Members Share Posted January 29, 2004 I need some advice on improving my clean tone.My setup is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jimfowler Posted January 29, 2004 Members Share Posted January 29, 2004 i'd try lower gain tubes. i've got an alembic f2-b, which is basically a showman preamp and my clean (and only) tone. i wouldn't resort to modifying the guts unless it's a last resort. i use nothing but rca tubes and have great results. you might also try running into a solid state power amp just to make sure the pre isn't slamming the power amp. -jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members El Grinder Posted January 29, 2004 Members Share Posted January 29, 2004 This may sound cheesy, but, don't hit the strings so hard. Pick control has a lot to do with tone and if rolling the volume knob isn't an option, easing up on your attack might help quite a bit. Other than that, a compressor might help level out those peaks if you toss one before the preamp's input. Of course, switching to a 12AT7 in the input slot might help a little. Your tone might change slightly, but those have a touch less gain than most 12AX7 tubes. That'd probably be cheaper and color your tone less than a compressor. But, that'll drop all of your gain and clean volume, not just the peaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted January 30, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by jimfowler i'd try lower gain tubes. i've got an alembic f2-b, which is basically a showman preamp and my clean (and only) tone. i wouldn't resort to modifying the guts unless it's a last resort. i use nothing but rca tubes and have great results. you might also try running into a solid state power amp just to make sure the pre isn't slamming the power amp.-jim Thanks Jim I pulled a 12AT7 from my old Chandler unit and plugged it into V1 position of the preamp. It certainly was an improvement specially with my Strat but it didn't solve it completely with the Humbackers of my Guild. Since I don't know yet what is the gain structure of this pre I think maybe I should replace the other tubes as well. Any suggestions ? I did try to lower the vol and by that reducing the signal level going to the poweramp with no improvement. Additionally, using the preamp's direct recording output yields the same results therefore; I believe the problem is around the input stages of the preamp. Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz/Rock Posted January 30, 2004 Members Share Posted January 30, 2004 Does it have anything to do with cab simulation? I know the POD users complain about roughly the same thing, until they turn off the cab sims when playing live. Maybe I'm way off. BTW, what humbuckers are you using? Not X2N types I assume???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members El Grinder Posted January 30, 2004 Members Share Posted January 30, 2004 As jazz/rock asked, what kind of humbuckers are you using? And again, since you said "When I hit the strings hard," I have to ask if the problem couldn't be fixed by honing your picking technique? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted January 30, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by El Grinder This may sound cheesy, but, don't hit the strings so hard. Pick control has a lot to do with tone and if rolling the volume knob isn't an option, easing up on your attack might help quite a bit.Other than that, a compressor might help level out those peaks if you toss one before the preamp's input.Of course, switching to a 12AT7 in the input slot might help a little. Your tone might change slightly, but those have a touch less gain than most 12AX7 tubes. That'd probably be cheaper and color your tone less than a compressor. But, that'll drop all of your gain and clean volume, not just the peaks. I don't hit the strings too hard but it's still there. I tried using a comp in front of the pre and it helped but I don't want to use it all the time since it does color the sound and has of course an effect on the dynamics of my playing.Regarding the overall gain, I don't mind loosing some gain since this pre has more gain than I'll ever need. So I'm willing to trade gain for cleaner tone with more dynamic range. Thnaks Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted January 30, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2004 Well, I'm clueless when it comes to pickups. It's a Guild S100 (like Gibson SG) from 1970. I bought it used and didn't mess with the pups. Looking from the outside, I don't see anything written on them.Keep in mind that I use this guitar with other amps (mostly Marshalls and Fenders). Recently I'm playing a lot with a Fender Blues Deville in our rehearsals studio and the clean sound is awesome without any problems. jazz/rock - the pre has a separate outputs for direct recording and I'm using the regular outputs; so it isn't that. Thanks, Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members El Grinder Posted January 30, 2004 Members Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Hektor* When I hit the strings hard, mainly while playing chords, the amp starts to distort. I was just going by what you had said. I tried using a comp in front of the pre and it helped but I don't want to use it all the time since it does color the sound and has of course an effect on the dynamics of my playing.Regarding the overall gain, I don't mind loosing some gain since this pre has more gain than I'll ever need. So I'm willing to trade gain for cleaner tone with more dynamic range. If the compressor helped then it's just the peaks of your dynamics that are causing the amp to distort. There are very transparent compressors out there, but if you do want both dynamics and no distortion then go with weaker pickups and the lowest gain tubes you can find. Other than that I wouldn't know what to suggest except for a limiter to simply cut off the peaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grittar Posted January 30, 2004 Members Share Posted January 30, 2004 It sounds like the Clean channel on that pre does not have a lot of headroom. Have you tried lowering the gain and raising the volume on the Green channel? Other than that what everyone has suggested...comp in front, etc. is all you could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted January 30, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by El Grinder I was just going by what you had said.If the compressor helped then it's just the peaks of your dynamics that are causing the amp to distort. There are very transparent compressors out there, but if you do want both dynamics and no distortion then go with weaker pickups and the lowest gain tubes you can find. Other than that I wouldn't know what to suggest except for a limiter to simply cut off the peaks. I'm using Keeley comp which is one of more transparent comps out there but still it colors the tone. Since I'm using this guitar with other amps and get superb results I don't think the problem is in the pups. btw, I have a dimartzio humbukcer pickup on my start, same story there too. It seems like the input stage of the pre is just too sensitive. I'll try different tubes and see how it goes. Any info on this pre gain structure ? I'll appreciate any info on input stage impedance. Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted January 30, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by grittar It sounds like the Clean channel on that pre does not have a lot of headroom. Have you tried lowering the gain and raising the volume on the Green channel? Other than that what everyone has suggested...comp in front, etc. is all you could do. The company says it should only start to distort when the gain is around 13:00. In my case it distorts even at 9:00. Lowering the gain below that makes it too cold and results an ineffective operation of the tone controls. Thanks, Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alby Posted January 31, 2004 Members Share Posted January 31, 2004 You need to confirm that the entire gain structure is OK and that may mean new tubes, power supply, cables, power amp, speakers or any number of other parts replaced or repaired or adusted. You need to test each part of the system independently with a scope or in a signal chain you are 100% sure of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted February 5, 2004 Author Members Share Posted February 5, 2004 Here is an update: I tried different tubes most of them NOS tubes, both ax7 and at7 in V1 and V4 positions. It defiantly had an impact on the tone but the problem still remains. I recorded 4 sound samples to demonstrate the problem. 3 with the preamp and one with an EQ pedal replacing the preamp. A detailed description and the sound samples are at : www.the-cubes.com/ilan Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz/Rock Posted February 6, 2004 Members Share Posted February 6, 2004 Did you try to turn the volume all the way up, and the gain all the way down to like 1 or 2? If so, the I'd say you have an issue with the input stage. I'm curious, did you try email contact with Voodoo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grittar Posted February 6, 2004 Members Share Posted February 6, 2004 Originally posted by Jazz/Rock Did you try to turn the volume all the way up, and the gain all the way down to like 1 or 2? If so, the I'd say you have an issue with the input stage. I'm curious, did you try email contact with Voodoo? I have already been there with him. He doesn't seem to want to believe it. Can't say that I blame him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tonedoctor1 Posted February 6, 2004 Members Share Posted February 6, 2004 Hektor, I think grittar has given you the clue. At some point you might want to face the reality that your preamp just doesn`t have the headroom you want on the clean channel.This is one of the reasons some guys do multiple preamps/heads. Some preamps/heads excel at gain stuff and some at clean. You can`t always get everything you want in one box. On the other side of that you might have to spend a little more money to get into preamps with a little more options and sophistication ie: CAE 3+ SE, Egnater M4,IE4, Soldano, etc. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted February 7, 2004 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2004 Thanks everybody I get this distortion regardless of the vol levels. Those samples were recorded with gain set to 9:00 which is 1 or 2. The vol was also set to low values just to prove that the distortion is not due to the preamp driving the poweramp too hard. Keep in mind I didn't try the unit before buying. I know this isn't a good way to go but this is one of the disadvanteges of living out of the US having very limited local selection. Since I have no references, I see two scenarios: 1 - this is the way this pre is designed to sound period. I find it very hard to believe especially since I'm using my guitars with many other amps including small practice amps that are known to be headroom limited and get much better results. In this case however, I would to solve it by using other preamps or by trying to modify the unit. 2 - there is something wrong with my unit. I hope this is the case. I base my hopes on the fact that this is a high quality product and that on the company site they describe the CLEAN channel as one with a "huge headroom". It's clear that my unit doesn't get even close to that. In this case it is easy. I will try to fix it from here or more likely send it back for repair. I did contact the company and send them the sound samples. I'm currently waiting for their final verdict on this. btw, I've added another sample. Same setup but with Strat middle single coil pup. www.the-cubes.com/ilan Thanks, Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz/Rock Posted February 7, 2004 Members Share Posted February 7, 2004 I'm just going by the mp3 preamp song, where it starts out really clean, so I know it can be clean. We'll see if and when they respond, but if your settings are there, then there is something wrong with your unit. Otherwise why would the mp3 at Voodoo Labs not reflect the crunch in the clean channel. To me, clean = clean. Crunch = crunch. Unless I had a bonified clean, it would be hard to justify the cost. I really like the sound of that preamp, lets hope its a small item that can be replaced by you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bogiebbs Posted February 7, 2004 Members Share Posted February 7, 2004 after hearing those clips im guessing something is wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted February 8, 2004 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2004 Originally posted by Jazz/Rock I'm just going by the mp3 preamp song, where it starts out really clean, so I know it can be clean. We'll see if and when they respond, but if your settings are there, then there is something wrong with your unit. Otherwise why would the mp3 at Voodoo Labs not reflect the crunch in the clean channel. To me, clean = clean. Crunch = crunch. Unless I had a bonified clean, it would be hard to justify the cost. I really like the sound of that preamp, lets hope its a small item that can be replaced by you. My point exactly ! and anyway there isn't any "huge headroom" as described on their site. I do like this preamp. It's really an outstanding unit. If only I could solve the clean ch problem. Thanks, Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted February 8, 2004 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2004 Originally posted by bogiebbs after hearing those clips im guessing something is wrong with it. I think so too but unfortunately it's now up to the company to decide. I'll appreciate any comments on the sound samples especially from other voodoo lab owners. Would you describe those as clean with huge headroom ? Thanks, Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grind Cruncher Posted February 24, 2004 Members Share Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by Hektor* I think so too but unfortunately it's now up to the company to decide. I'll appreciate any comments on the sound samples especially from other voodoo lab owners. Would you describe those as clean with huge headroom ? Thanks, Hektor I listened to the clips and that really sounds bad. Almost sounds like a solid state distortion to me. I think you should get it checked by a tech or send it in for repair right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RedMikeLine Posted February 24, 2004 Members Share Posted February 24, 2004 I 've had this preamp for a year and I can tell you the clean channel on mine doesn't distort until you push the gain hard. And I used a Les Paul with the high output pickups (496/500). So I would suspect something's wrong with yours. I also might add that the clean channel is awesome on this preamp. Definitly better than my JMP-1 or Triple Giant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hektor* Posted March 3, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2004 Ok, here is an update. Following my own observations and your feedback I sent the unit back to be checked by the company and YES there was a wrong pot in the clean channel (the mid pot was x10 of its correct value). I just got it back and it's MUCH better now. I'll let you know more after trying it at gig levels. I want to thank you all for taking the time and helping me here. Hektor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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