Not even sure where to begin

[alan22153]

Hello all, I've lurked around this thread off and on for several months, and have made a few posts as well. I'm currently jamming with a few other musicians and we are trying to get all the pieces in place to start a group - more for fun than for money. None of these guys have any PA equipment, nor do they seem to know much about the science of live sound. I do realize the importance of quality PA gear in making live sound gear. I've also seen bands playing with what seemed to be decent gear, yet the sound was somehow off.

 

O.K..I'll get to the point already. I realize that what I need more than anything else right now is some education. At this point, I don't even know what I don't know. I've skimmed over these threads and looked online for some basic information. But I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. I even went to a local bookstore looking for a 'Live Sound for Dummies' type book. This national retailer did not have a single book on live sound even in their catalouge.

 

Obviously, getting some hands-on experience with live gear would be useful. And, I'm exploring opportunities to get this type of experience. In the meantime, if anyone has any suggestions to get me pointed in the right direction, I would appreciate it. Any particular concepts that I should work to grasp, and what order to learn them may be helpful. I tend to try to look at the entire picture first and then find I'm overwhelmed. Also, any books or helpful websites would be appreciated as well.

 

Thank you!

[Vinny D]

Yorkville has some good reading on there site: http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp?p1=6&p2=0&p_id=17

[W. M. Hellinger]

I suggest the following:

 

1) Get out your local Yellow Pages phone book, and find the area sound contractors. Typically look under: "Sound Systems & Equipment"

 

2) Contact one or more of these companies and offer to apprentice, ie. work FREE for the opportunity for some on-the job training.

 

I find it difficult to read a book and then somehow later try to remember what was read and apply it in some sort of realistic manner to the situation at hand... without reading and committing to memory a great deal of information. I find it much easier to connect the dots with hands on training with the equipment at the same time as soaking up information (timely application of the knowledge)... thus the suggestion to saddle up to an area contractor... even if it involves some work. Besides which, most contractors are fairly cost conscious and have a pretty good handle on getting good performance out of reasonable levels of gear... and successful contractors are adept at delivering what the crowd wants while working with the performers... which is a key bit of knowledge if you're going to be successful with performance audio... and is something that isn't generally specifically focused on in books. (I've never seen a chapter in a book titled "Reading the crowd and reading the band".) Also, a lot of books seem to resort to math to explain things (without explaining the math with anything but more math)... which also leads to shelving the book. It seems like many books are written to impress other folks who already know all that stuff... rather than imparting useful knowledge to those who know very little about the subject. The Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook is one of the few that imparts knowledge at a useful level for the beginner... although some portions of that book are getting fairly dated.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/YAMAHA-SOUND-REINFORCEMENT-BOOK_W0QQitemZ130091189295

[pro1-54]

When you're finished with the Yorkville site theres a pile of info at Rane

http://www.rane.com/library.html

The pro audio reference is a good one.

For some light reading check out the Pro audio names.

Nothing beats work experience.

[alan22153]

Thanks to everyone for the ideas. I still wish there was a 'dummies' book. I need new concepts spelled out in a simple, compact, format to begin.

 

thanks again

[ezstep]

Seriously, start reading "Guide for Goobers" at the top of this page. Lots of free info there.

[bassred]

Go to Amazon, search for 'Live Sound, there is one called "THe live sound manual:Getting great sound at every gig" It has good descriptions for folks who are new to the gear, and makes for a good reference (I used to lend my copy to folks who were new to the stuff, probably where I lost it.....)

 

Yamaha Sound reinforcement handbook is the king of all reference books, but is a lot of tech talk, sometimes too in-depth for newbies...

 

I carry my refeence books with me, that way I don't have to remember everything, might be a good way to start, and you can share your knowledge with your bandmates!

[Rbts]

Alan,

 

You have been given several good leads for reading here. There is some science to it, but it is not rocket science. There are a boat load of little nuances (way more than I know), but if you keep it simple, you can apply good basic live sound techniques and get a decent sound.

 

My honest suggestion is that you do no more than necessary, and keep things very simple as you start. Try not to be any louder than you have to, and you will actually probably sound BETTER.

 

Do a little study on specifically what you are trying to do, and the answers will present themselves.

 

Before you start spending money, try to imagine where you are REALLY going to end up, and get the equipment that will REALLY get you there at the outset... this will save a lot of frustration and money.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

I carry my refeence books with me, that way I don't have to remember everything,

 

"That" is what written language was invented for... as the ways and means to not have to remember everything... and as the ways and means to vicariously pass information to others... but it is a painfully slow and cumbersome method to learn. It is an especially ponderous method to impart knowledge of a skill. Remember driver's ed? How much was learned sitting in the classroom, and how much was learned sitting behind the wheel? Remember music lessons? How much was learned reading a book, and how much was learned playing the instrument?

 

Reading and writing have it's place... but in the world of performance audio... master and grasshopper impartation of the skill is difficult to beat. Admittedly, the best is a combination of both. Bone up with reading, then apply the knowledge hands-on... and hang with the pros.

 

I suggest buying a good book (like the Yamaha SR handbook), and buy a pair of Wells Lamont leather gloves... read the book, a couple of times, while apprenticing with the best sound company in the area (if you're serious about all of this). Yes, it's gonna be some work. Yes, it will be worth it if your'e really into all of this. Yes, I suspect you will learn more at Denny's at 4:00am... having breakfast with the crew, than you'll ever learn in any book.

[Dogoth]

I suspect you will learn more at Denny's at 4:00am... having breakfast with the crew, than you'll ever learn in any book.

 

Not sure why you posted 3 times but to the idea of real world experiance. Once you've worked a few shows THEN peruse the books a bit and it's amazing how much more all of it will make sense.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Not sure why you posted 3 times but

Because: in my education classes in college, I was taught that learning involves read something approx. 18 times before it "sticks"... so I only need to post that 15 more times.

 

No joke. Studies have shown "that" (read it 18 times) is somewhere around the magic number for committing something to memory through reading or spoken language, but actually doing something while reading or being lectured, stuff can stick a lot faster... like 3 or 4 time faster.

 

But the reason I posted 3 times was 'cause I was attempting to post while HCSR was broken. Glad to see it's fixed... again. Somebody must have fed the hamster.

 

I really hate digital stuff. Digital phones, websites, internet stuff, etc... none of it ever actually works... I think it's all in some state of disrepair or partially messed up, all the time... it's just that sometimes it's fixed good enough that it's actually usable, sort-of. It's amazing that we become accustomed to this and accept it as "normal". It's also amazing that one of the key building blocks of our modern society is based completely on something that shouldn't work, except if you stack enough stuff up that shouldn't work, then eventually one actually will work, so there's the random chance that it will work even if it's not suspose to work, and the completely random chance it will work is what we base our digital revolution on.

[boomerweps]

www.pasystem.us has a nice basic small to big "parts is parts" type tutorial and a few extras. Doesn't cover everything but it gives a basic framework to start with. Associated message board linked there is

http://disc.server.com/Indices/22769.html

It's pretty friendly for PA neophytes ;>)

 

You found this site. People will pretty much answer any and all level of questions here. There are some in depth profession sound sites but asking basic "I know nothing", "feed me" baby chicken type questions won't get you far there. You'll need to learn enough to ask the right questions or narrow down the area in question at those site(s), sorry ;>(

 

There IS a "Sound Reinforcement for (dummies) Musicians" ;>) book by duncan fry, likely you'd have to order it.

 

If you have a Peavey retailer near you, they have an "answer book" series of booklets that are quite informative.

 

The Yamah Sound Reinforcement book is great ONCE you have an idea how most things work. It's mostly sound theory and acoustics with some electronics mixed in, so a TERRIBLE book to recommend to anyone jumping into PAs feet first unless they have some electronics or wave theory background.

 

You can go to JBLs website and download their Sound Reinforcement Manual for free, great for sound wave propagation basics and (for me) to keep my numbers straight. Again, math is your friend for that one.

 

I downloaded the Yorkville PA guides and they are pretty good, too. www.yorkville.com.

 

I found for learning mixer basics, terms, and signal flow that downloading a small mixer manual from www.behringer.com works. The fewer the knobs the easier to learn & keep straight and this is one area Behringer can't be faulted on (unlike other areas). Manufacturers assume when you buy a big mixer you know what you are doing and buying a small mixer you are just starting out and write the manuals for those on that assumption.

 

Boomerweps

[Rbts]

I suggest buying a good book (like the Yamaha SR handbook), and buy a pair of Wells Lamont leather gloves - W.M. Hellinger

 

This is a great piece of advice... the kind of thing that someone who has forgotten more than somebody like me has ever learned could come up with. It suggests just which reading material, and just which gloves.

 

I have actually worn out a few pairs of leather gloves, and it has always been instructional, even for someone like me who learns almost begrudgingly.

[Tweeter225]

Just buy some equipment and turn it up as loud as it will go. Never mind the loud squealing noises, they'll go away after a little while.

[Dogoth]

 

I really hate digital stuff. Digital phones, websites, internet stuff, etc... none of it ever actually works... I think it's all in some state of disrepair or partially messed up, all the time... it's just that sometimes it's fixed good enough that it's actually usable, sort-of. It's amazing that we become accustomed to this and accept it as "normal". It's also amazing that one of the key building blocks of our modern society is based completely on something that shouldn't work, except if you stack enough stuff up that shouldn't work, then eventually one actually will work, so there's the random chance that it will work even if it's not suspose to work, and the completely random chance it will work is what we base our digital revolution on.

 

 

OK this is off topic but I just gotta share it.

 

This may be an Urban legend but the story goes that Bill gates and the current president of the General Motors Corp were at a business convention and each one said a few words on the mic. Bill Gates said "If the automobile industry were run like the computer industry we would all be driving cars that went 300 mph and cost $500.00." G.M.'s president replied that "If the automobile industry were run like the computer industry our cars would crash once a week, would need to be rebuilt every 6 monthes and would become outdated every 2 years."

 

I don't know if the story's true but certainly does speak of the truth. I'ts amazing how much of our highly critical infrastructure we trust to error prone bits and bytes.