Need Help: Running Monitors from Stage

[UMT]

I have had it with sound techs trying to run my monitors from 50-100 ft. away. They can't hear what's going on and I can't seem to explain to them what we need. Unfortunately, I have to use a couple different sound companies depending on availability and our schedule, and I'm sick of the monitors either being good or sucking to max.

 

I realize there are Wireless IEM's out there but right now, I can't afford it nor am I completely sold on the idea. How do I set up a mixer onstage to mix our monitors yet let the sound geek run FOH? Do I need a mixer with 'dual sends' or something?

 

I don't need anything super elaborate but if somebody could explain to me how to do this, I would be extremely grateful. You help may keep me out of prison over murdering some sound tech.

[witesol]

strictly on gear and hookup resons it's not difficult. But you may(will) encounter some grief if you show up with monitor mixer, splitters, amps and wedges to many gigs when the system is already in place, hooked up and especially if you are playing a set within a show of a few or many acts. If you showed up to my gig with a monitor rig I'd tell you to leave it in your truck.

 

"Sound geek" interesting.

 

Depends on what you have. You could spend a $1500-2500 on a mixer with onboard splits, like the Mixwiz monitor. Or you could invest in some mic splits snake cable, power amps, EQs and wedges, and a regular mixer that has enough channels for everything you want to hear in the monitors and enough sends/outs for as many mixes onstage you desire. Then you could hope to unplug every channel the "Sound Geek" has hooked up to his/her snake and plug into your splits, then mix your own monitors in addition to getting a FOH mix, probably taking twice as long, then repatching after your set. If it's your gig and you have all the time to hook up things and soundcheck, then it could work. The problem is at that point you're running your own monitors and if something by chance is moved and a nice ear-splitting feedback happens during your set, one of you will have to immediately figure out the problem, find the offending channel/send and remedy.

 

..OR, you could figure out how to communicate a bit better with the engineer about what is needed on stage. Hand signals, precise EQ directives, one at a time requests, etc...

 

Sorry, Not trying to be sarcastic, just realistic. If you want to invest in a nice monitor rig, by all means, it'll come in handy. As a player if there are monitors of any capacity I can usually get them happening (along with the house engineer), to a point where I can perform and transcend whatever isn't completely right onstage with good playing.

[UMT]

 

strictly on gear and hookup resons it's not difficult. But you may(will) encounter some grief if you show up with monitor mixer, splitters, amps and wedges to many gigs when the system is already in place, hooked up and especially if you are playing a set within a show of a few or many acts. If you showed up to my gig with a monitor rig I'd tell you to leave it in your truck. "Sound geek" interesting. Depends on what you have. You could spend a $1500-2500 on a mixer with onboard splits, like the Mixwiz monitor. Or you could invest in some mic splits snake cable, power amps, EQs and wedges, and a regular mixer that has enough channels for everything you want to hear in the monitors and enough sends/outs for as many mixes onstage you desire. Then you could hope to unplug every channel the "Sound Geek" has hooked up to his/her snake and plug into your splits, then mix your own monitors in addition to getting a FOH mix, probably taking twice as long, then repatching after your set ..OR, you could figure out how to communicate a bit better with the engineer about what is needed on stage. Hand signals, precise EQ directives, one at a time requests, etc... Sorry, Not trying to be sarcastic, just realistic. If you want to invest in a nice monitor rig, by all means, it'll come in handy. As a player if there are monitors of any capacity I can usually get them happening (along with the house engineer), to a point where I can perform and transcend whatever isn't completely right onstage with good playing.

 

 

We don't play any shows where we are using a 'house setup.' I always provide our own sound. I've been doing this for 40+ years and I think I communicate with our sound techs well. I treat them and pay them well also but it just seems like, sometimes, they don't pay any attention or have the attitude of: "I'm doing this the way I like, not the way YOU like" even though I'm footing the bill. This is a 'sound geek'... I know who they are and don't work with them any more than I absolutely have to. I already own snakes, eq's, power amps and I don't know if I'm fond about the idea of using 'mike splits.' (I'm not sure exactly if we are talking about the same thing. I'll look into it)

 

But basically, you are saying that the simplest way is to look into a mixer with multiple sends? I'll take a look at this 'MixWiz'....

 

All ideas welcome from all comers! Ha.

[witesol]

No, not really multiple sends..a dedicated monitor mixer has pass-thrus for each channel's input, on XLRs. You'd need an XLR snake of as many channels as you need inputs desired into the monitors. Plug mics into monitor mixer, then onward into house sound mixer using whatever length XLR to XLR snake required. Your monitor board now has all the channels and you can create mixes into EQs-amps and wedges as needed. At that point the mixer would have multiple outs or sends to create separate monitor mixes. How many different mixes do you desire? ..Not how many monitor speakers, but mixes? Then obviously you'd need a mixer that has that many separate discrete sends, then EQs, then amps and finally wedges.

 

The splits are another option that are frequently used with a regular soundboard. As simple as an XLR Y cord up to transformer balanced high quality rack mounted splits, you need something in lieu of a dedicated monitor board. Just count how many channels/sources onstage you desire in the monitors. If it's over 16 you're into some higher dollar territory.

 

I can appreciate all the experience you have in playing. Excuse the sarcsm, but it's almost that if you knew you wouldn't have to ask, no? That's why I asked some simple questions and some rather obvious ones.

[UMT]

 

I can appreciate all the experience you have in playing. Excuse the sarcsm, but it's almost that if you knew you wouldn't have to ask, no?

 

 

Guy, I'm not trying to pick a fight here but I'm not totally ignorant when it comes to running sound or working with sound techs. I'm just trying to figure out a way, like MANY other musicians are doing, of taking this responsibility away from a sound tech sitting 50-100 ft. away.

 

I looked at the WhirlWind splitter and this might be a easy way to get started.

[Danny (NS::U)]

 

Guy, I'm not trying to pick a fight here but I'm not totally ignorant when it comes to running sound or working with sound techs. I'm just trying to figure out a way, like MANY other musicians are doing, of taking this responsibility away from a sound tech sitting 50-100 ft. away. I looked at the WhirlWind splitter and this might be a easy way to get started.

 

 

I don't think it's a bad idea, but it isn't trivial to implement correctly. No matter what you do, make sure that whatever solution you choose will completely isolate FOH and monitor-world (or as completely as possible). A stage box with these in it would probably be a good start: http://www.audiopile.net/products/Electronics/MST-412_rack_splitter/MST-412_cutsheet.asp

 

On PSW, someone was complaining about how folks running their own monitor rigs should bring "everything or nothing." As long as you make sure that you everything required to make it work (possibly including your own microphones), and get all the kinks worked out with the FOH-human long before the gig, you should be okay. (Like I said - this is a non-trivial thing.)

[Special J]

Sound geek here. I'll throw in my $.02. There are many ways of going about this. As witesol mentioned, you can buy a mixer with a built in split or buy a transformered mic split along with a mixer large enough to handle all your inputs. You can also use a system like this Aviom and hook it up to either wedges or in-ear monitors. That way, everyone gets the mix they make up, and if it's bad, it's their own fault. Or, since you're hiring out sound anyway, you can see how much more it is to add a side stage monitor mix. To me, it seems like more of a communication problem than anything else. Do you call him a geek to his face? That would explain why you don't ever get a good monitor mix.

[Not Serial]

with the demeaning attitude from the OP i beleive very few audio techs will assist you.

 

ever.

[UMT]

 

with the demeaning attitude from the OP i beleive very few audio techs will assist you. ever.

 

 

I definately don't need any assitance from you, pal.

 

UMT

[milesdf]

Wow lots of idiots around here lately, this is a perfectly reasonable question and I have no idea why its getting a whole lot of asshole responses.

 

I think if you are providing all/most of the gear you shouldn't have any problem with a splitter snake and a small mixer onstage for your monitors. You don't need a transformer isolated splitter snake, you don't even need one with lift switches (just make sure the split side grounds are cut at the connectors on the stage box). Even without this stuff a splitter snake can get mega expensive, especially with a disconnect. Basically all it is is a snake with two trunks and fanouts, one to your monitor mixer and one to foh.

 

Your monitor mixer is a seperate mixer at the side of the stage. You could pay someone to run it, or in your case just get it set up and you'll probablly never have to touch it again (because you play the same instruments and the same music for all your gigs). You can put your eq in the same rack as it. You can probablly skimp on the mixer as well, who needs a full drum set in thier monitors or 2 snare mics.

 

I hope this helps.

[witesol]

couple simple questions:

what mixer(s) do you have at your disposal?

How many separate mixes do you require? (not how many wedges)

 

you'd need splits for as many sources onstage that you want in monitors. You also need as many discrete auxes(sends) on a mixer as you require monitor mixes. Obviously you need an EQ and power amp for each mix. You also need XLR to XLR snake(or at least mic cables) to pass through to the FOH from the splits.

 

that being said, do you really want to bring what amounts to an entire sound system to your gig? Mixer, amp racks, EQs, wedges? I can't say how important it is, nor could guess at what level the gigs are. Also, I would never assume that a poor monitor mix shouldn't vibe you out enough to ruin a gig. Personally I relish the chance to not bring anything to a gig where I'm playing and will make it work somehow. To show up with guitar, amp and cord bag is heaven. As a FOH guy, having to deal only with mains would be like leaving half my stuff at home, and only worry about the main mix. And yet there's now something out of my control that does affect the quality of job I can produce...to an extent. This brings up a question: would you be offering less pay to the FOH guy since you're doing extra work and providing the monitor rig?

[witesol]

Wow lots of idiots around here lately, this is a perfectly reasonable question and I have no idea why its getting a whole lot of asshole responses. .

 

"a whole lot of asshole responses"? Idiots?

[mtmra70]

A split is an easy way to do this, if you have the rest of the gear already....unless the FOH has a big board with direct outs on every channel, though that would require two snakes.

 

Having run monitor board for a while now, when someone wants more or less of something, I give it to them. But I do have executive control over everything and at times over rule them. Monitors can easily destroy a FOH mix if they are too loud.

[BigMac5]

Wow lots of idiots around here lately, this is a perfectly reasonable question and I have no idea why its getting a whole lot of asshole responses.

It might have something to do with referring to Sound Engineers as "sound geeks" in the original post. I could be wrong.

[Danny (NS::U)]

It might have something to do with referring to Sound Engineers as "sound geeks" in the original post. I could be wrong.

 

I would personally take "sound geek" as a compliment.

[UMT]

Thanks to all of you who gave me a civil response. I have it figured out now. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. 8 out of 10 sound techs that I work with are really good guys. It's those remaining 2 that think THEIR name is headlining on the marqee out front that is driving me nuts.

 

Thanks Again,

UMT

[Bugzie]

I'd love for a band to show up and tell me that I don't have to deal with the monitor mix. But then again I'm just the front of house guy with a PA. I certainly don't consider myself an "engineer." And being a "sound geek" is something I've spent a lot of time and money to become, so I don't find that offensive. The A&H monitor mixer is an awesome board. Next thing on my list as a matter of fact. Having 12 monitor mixes is more than I'll ever need but the thing is slick! Sorry to hear that you can't get a good monitor mix, not always easy to give people what they want.

[witesol]

 

I'd love for a band to show up and tell me that I don't have to deal with the monitor mix. .

 

 

yea, I could leave nearly half the stuff at home. Of course you hope they do it well. Guess who still gets the nasty stare when there's feedback?

[bassred]

I don't think there were any uncivilized responses, and I've read them all twice... When dealing with a sound person and dialing in your monitor mix it is up to you to ask for more or less of a certain instrument or voice, and you should have some knowledge of frequencies, since "It sounds too boomy" is only a good generalization and giving a range of freqs to cut to solve your monitor woes makes everything go so much more smoothly.. If you are hiring the sound and there are two guys who do a bad job the solution is really simple .... Don't call those two guys to do your sound .. *Gasp* that's right, cut the fat and book far enough ahead to get one of the 6-8 who does a good job for you..

 

I've had it from both sides, as a bass player/lead vocalist and a sound guy at FOH or Monitor positions, your (my) mix should end up how you (I) like it or you're (I'm) not doing your (my) job.... it goes for both sides..

[Big Al]

Just like the OP, I got fed up and now I always run my band's monitors from the stage. It's REALLY easy.

 

Here's what I did:

 

Put your mixer in a road case along with a rack-mount 4-channel mic splitter with ground lifts. The splitter will run you about $200. Get 4 short mic cables and 4 long ones. Run the short ones from the splitter to your mixer. Bundle the long ones into a homemade snake, zip tie, and attach them to the other outputs of the splitter. Color code your cables with zip ties or label them.

 

Now when you set up, you just take the doors off of your road case and run the 4 long cable splits to the FOH snake. Insert your 4 most important mics into the splitter and you're ready to rock. All of the levels and EQs on your mixer can stay the same. Including the Main Out, AUX1, AUX2, and Effect Send, even a $350 Yamaha mixer can give you 4 monitor mixes, but I just make 2.

 

After many gigs with this setup, I can tell you I almost never need to adjust monitors after soundcheck. It's crazy to think a guy 50 feet away can dial in the sound or fix problems on the fly. As long as you don't add compression or reverb to the monitors, and you play at a reasonable volume, you won't have any trouble. In my opinion, it's the busy/bored fingers on the FOH boad that get you in trouble. The second they touch a trim or twist the wrong knob, your monitor mix is screwed and during a gig there's no way for them to dial it back in.

 

If you want every mic in your monitors, buy more splitters or buy a splitter snake. I think you can make a homeade one like I did much cheaper. I can get this setup going very fast, and the time you save by not having the sound guy dial in the monitor mix will cover the extra setup. Most importantly, you get the same mix every time through the same wedges or IEMs. You know no knobs will move while you're playing, and you can trust the equipment.

 

Final tip: If you decide to add another instrument to your monitors after the cables have been run, just grab an extra SM57 and a mic cord. Run it straight to your mixer. If you want to have a "Ready for Combat" setup, keep two SM57s attached to mic cords in your rack drawer. BAM!

 

We normally play small bars, but this setup worked great last Sunday when we played for 4,000 people in a high school football stadium.

[Mogwix]

Are you usually playing shows where it's just your band, or are there other bands? Will the other bands be using your monitor rig?

 

As a tech, bands carrying their own monitor rigs can be a major pain in the ass. On big shows you run into a lot of channel problems because with so many splits and snakes on stage, you run into the problem of which channels are going where, and it's never a quick solution. So my advice is please, keep it as simple as you possibly can.

 

What are you hoping to run for your monitor rig? Vocals only? A little bit of guitar too? I would highly recommend carrying all of your own mics, this includes drum mics, vocal mics, instrument mics, DI's and what-have-you.

 

Here's how I would set this up for my band:

 

Monitor rack is a Mixwiz WZ3 12M mixer on top, with a pair of dbx 1231 eq's, and a pair of QSC PLX 1804's. That's 4 discreet mixes. Monitors are JBL SRX12M's, usually four of them but sometimes 8 and sometimes a small sub for the drummer.

 

My band is a four-piece; vocals, guitar, bass, and drums. I carry all of my own mics, and never use any more than 16 channels. I would mic all the instruments on stage and run them to my monitor mixer. Having all my channels going through the monitor mixer makes it much easier to patch the FOH send, and also gives me the freedom of mixing in any of my mics at my leisure.

 

I'd have a 16ch patch snake that lives in the back of the monitor rack. When we set up we drop all our monitors in their places, drop the monitor rack and open it up. Run the patch snake to the stage snake, run speaker cables to monitors (there is a patch panel on the back of the rack that has speakon connectors clearly labelled with who gets what), run our drop-snakes (4-channel for frontline mics, and a 12-channel for drums and backline), mic up the stage, ring out monitors, check levels and we're good to go.