Members scubyfan Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3820495.stm What do you think? They wanted to negotiate with the U.S. for the release of some prisoners, but the U.S. declined and Paul Johnson was decapitated. Was this the right thing to do? Will people now say "enough is enough"? Will they even care? What DO YOU think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Analog Kid Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 you dont want to know what i thinkhell, i dont even want to know what i think about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scubyfan Posted June 18, 2004 Author Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 We are overdue for an OT thread: share your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GlassPrisoner Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Is it OK with the mods here ? Most BBs don't like politics or religion. Anyway, I've got mixed feelings. I really don't think there is any simple solution. My gut reaction is anger. F***N Nuke 'em. But, that's not civilized, and not much of a solution. Horrible effen way to die...... I dunno. I don't have any answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Symbiotic Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 I can't decide who this makes look worse, the Saudi Militants/Al Qaeda or the US Administration... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scubyfan Posted June 18, 2004 Author Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 We are not really moderated, unless some asshole reports the threads. I'm also shocked at this, but also feel the U.S. could have done something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GlassPrisoner Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Well, what could we have done ? We have two long standing policies. 1. Don't assasinate other countries leaders2. Don't negotiate with terrorists # 2 being key. What else, try and send in the rangers or seals and rescue the guy ? Did we know where he was ? Like I said, anger is the first reaction, and that leads me to brute force. But will it do any good ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members toorglick Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Originally posted by scubyfan We are not really moderated, unless some asshole reports the threads. I'm also shocked at this, but also feel the U.S. could have done something. Aside from things like, "not have invaded Iraq", or "send in Black Ops" what precisely could we have done? The Saudis said they would not negotiate with terrorists. It was in Saudi Arabia and they won't let us just sweep in there and "take 'em out". What's happening here is that the Saudis are being dragged into this Al Quaeda vs the USA death match and they are being forced to choose who they support, the US or the militants. This is bad for the Royal family because they must do something. On the one hand, do they support the US to keep the money coming? Or do they support the "Muslim cause" to pacify terrorists? This, I'm sure, is only the beginning of the drama in that country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Array Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Originally posted by scubyfan We are not really moderated, unless some asshole reports the threads. I'm also shocked at this, but also feel the U.S. could have done something. Im not the least bit surprised this guy got killed. The USA told him, as well as every other American in Saudi Arabia, to leave. The USA also has a long standing policy regarding not negotiating with terrorists. This guy knew what he was getting into by staying behind. That said, I feel terrible for his family and I hope the killers are brought to justice Blackhawk style. Anyhow, here is a rather cynical comic strip: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Array Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Originally posted by DodgingRain I think it's time to overthrow the saudi government. I love how they track down the terrorists at the same time they fund them. I think the US should take over the world. I mean we all saw how quickly and easily I took over KSS today, there was very little resistance and I was only one well organized person. Think what two people could do. The USA would need a change in leadership first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Analog Kid Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Originally posted by DodgingRain Anyway, the real truth behind things is that the CIA staged the event in order to increase their funding so they can have free Pepsi in the soda machines at work. They thought that was a more effective way of getting the money than a congressional hearing. lol... that makes a lot more sense than anything Karl Rove would have offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pgunders Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Originally posted by DodgingRain I think it's time to overthrow the saudi government. I love how they track down the terrorists at the same time they fund them.I think the US should take over the world. I mean we all saw how quickly and easily I took over KSS today, there was very little resistance and I was only one well organized person. Think what two people could do. The US won't touch Saudi Arabia for one simple reason: it's the 800 pound gorilla of OPEC. Which means the Saudi's are our allies in supporting the cause of "freedom"--even though the country is a monarchy, practices public executions, censors its press, forbids its women to drive or even go anywhere without a male escort. It's all very surreal to me, I lived in Riyadh for a few years back in the '80s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Symbiotic Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Breaking News: An Al Qaeda leader was killed while trying to dispose of Johnson's (the beheaded hostage) body. Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pgunders Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 er... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EerieDreamZ Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Now, I know it won't make much difference to many here and its definitely not going to be much consolation to the family, but.... Based on my experiences and knowing a lot of what goes on behind the scenes over there when this kind of utter dehumanizing crap occurs, (now go back and reread all of what I just wrote before continuing..) There will be a whole lot of killing going on that no one else is going to report, and it will be the terrorists who are being killed. Maybe not the top heads, but a lot of "small potatoes" will be mopped up by the underground police. The Al Queda operatives WILL be feeling a lot of pain REALLY quick. Notice that there is already a report of an Al Queda head being killed within 12 hours of the incident. It might be a political lie to ease tensions, but my money is betting that its true. There is no easy answer to this nasty situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scubyfan Posted June 18, 2004 Author Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Interesting responses. Some of you asked: what could the U.S. do? Obviously, negotiate, but I am well aware of its policies not to do so with terrorists. But the moral question, if you will, is when is enough? If twenty are taken hostage, do you negotiate then? 100? 1000? These are hypothetical scenarios, but imagine being taken hostage and knowing for a fact that you won't be free - unless you get extremely lucky and are rescued - because your country has to follow certain policies that place your life above a prisoner exchange or any other negotiations of that sort. And let's not forget that the U.S. negotiated with a particular character though indirect channels in Fallujah a couple of months back. I also recall some workers of another country that were freed with negotiations, though I cannot remember the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AfroRouge Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Originally posted by toorglick What's happening here is that the Saudis are being dragged into this Al Quaeda vs the USA death match and they are being forced to choose who they support, the US or the militants. Actually it's kind of the other way around. Al Qaeda's long term aim is to establish a fundamentalist Islamic state that spans the entire middle east, with Saudi Arabia at its core. This obviously isn't in the best interests of the US, so we're already against them, but we are targeted because we support regimes which are either secular or not conforming to Al Qaeda's version of Islamic truth (not to mention Israel). The Saudi regime seems to be made up of two camps: those who support the terrorists and those who are being targeted by the terrorists. All the attacks against US targets before 9/11 were intended to get us out of the Middle East (i.e. the bombing of the ship in Yemen, etc.). They aren't attacking us because we love freedom, or because we eat McDonalds, but because we are standing between them and their "Islamic" revolution. Personally I'm a supporter of the Saudi regime, because these fundamentalists taking over there would destroy the world economy and the fundamentalists in our country, already too powerful, would probably have us talking seriously about turning other countries into radioactive parking lots again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AgtOrange Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 Originally posted by GlassPrisoner Well, what could we have done ?We have two long standing policies.1. Don't assasinate other countries leaders2. Don't negotiate with terrorists# 2 being key. What else, try and send in the rangers or seals and rescue the guy ? Did we know where he was ?Like I said, anger is the first reaction, and that leads me to brute force. But will it do any good ? #1 isn't really true. Numerous attempts were made to assassinate Hussein. We just use cruise missiles and call it a 'decapitating strike'. We tried like hell to assassinate Castro. According to Richard Clarke, we did 'something' in Iran in the 90's, and their behavior improved suddenly. We provided considerable support in the assassination of Escobar(sp?), who for all intents and purposes was Colombia's leader at the time. There was significant consideration given to assassinating Noriega. So no, I wouldn't say we don't assassinate other country's leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brewgoodbeer Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 This whole thing is horrible. Terrorism is like a cancer. Just when you think you have it under control, the doctors find more. It will be a slow and often agonizing process. This man did not deserve to die, but he was also told to leave. If I were taken hostess you can be I would not cooperate in the least. You cannot cooperate. That is where all hostages make the mistake. Fight quickly with everything you have. What are they going to do kill you? They are going to do that anyway. Why give them a media show. All the people aboard the flight in PA on 9/11 died fighting and look how many lives they saved. Hostages must be brave and fight for their freedom . They have been unwillingly thrust into the front lines of the war. They must fight for everyones freedom. That is what Americans do. When someone takes your freedom away, you fight. Having said all that, I feel terrible for this man's family. How can the terrorists ever think that they will gain respect in the world by killing innocent people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AfroRouge Posted June 18, 2004 Members Share Posted June 18, 2004 It's easy to say you'd fight when you're sitting at home behind a computer, but when someone has a gun in your face, I'm betting you're more likely to piss in your pants than fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Green Red Brown Posted June 19, 2004 Members Share Posted June 19, 2004 Originally posted by 3DMC Breaking News: An Al Qaeda leader was killed while trying to dispose of Johnson's (the beheaded hostage) body. Interesting... Yes, if you believe the story, a witness spotted them dumping the body, and reported the license plate. Saudi police trapped the car and killed 3 occupants, including the head of al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia. 2 got away. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5196406/ Good for them, if true. Johnson gave his life to turn in 3 really bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Texas Noise Factory Posted June 19, 2004 Members Share Posted June 19, 2004 Originally posted by Green Red Brown Yes, if you believe the story, a witness spotted them dumping the body, and reported the license plate. Saudi police trapped the car and killed 3 occupants, including the head of al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia. 2 got away.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5196406/Good for them, if true. Johnson gave his life to turn in 3 really bad guys. Call me crazy, but why the {censored} would an al Queda "head" be doing a delivery? Don't you get the newbies/lower echelon to do those jobs? What is this guy... stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AfroRouge Posted June 19, 2004 Members Share Posted June 19, 2004 I wouldn't discount al Qaeda too quickly. They managed to radically alter the outcome of the Spainish elections, which among other things resulted in Spain withdrawing its troops from the Middle East (in other words, the terrorists won). They most certainly will want to affect the outcome of the election in November, just how is the big question. Hijackings don't seem like a viable option anymore, partly because of the tighter security but more because the passengers are wise to what's happening and won't put up with a few assholes with knives (or, whatever they're able to take aboard - electric shavers or something) trying to intimidate a plane of hundreds of people. Your guess is as good as mine on what they'll try to do instead. Let's just hope North Korea doesn't sell them a nuke or something equally horrific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scubyfan Posted June 19, 2004 Author Members Share Posted June 19, 2004 Originally posted by brewgoodbeer You cannot cooperate. That is where all hostages make the mistake. Fight quickly with everything you have. What are they going to do kill you? They are going to do that anyway. Why give them a media show. All the people aboard the flight in PA on 9/11 died fighting and look how many lives they saved. Let's take it from the top: 1) Hostages have been released in the past. Even weeks ago, hostages of another country were released when conditions were met. 2) You can't fight. Period. You will have three to five people outpowering you and they will have guns and you won't. You say that because you are not captured, but once you are, you will act as a piece of {censored}. As will I and everyone else. 3) As for airplane hostages: usually such cases do not end in deaths. 9/11 was a change from the norm, but if you were on that plane, you would not know that unless you were told explicitly of the future outcome. We don't know what took place aboard that flight: some claim "heroism" and others claim a military jet shot it down. I wasn't there, neither were you, and snippets of audio and "connect the dots" don't work in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yoozer Posted June 19, 2004 Members Share Posted June 19, 2004 Originally posted by GlassPrisoner Is it OK with the mods here ? Most BBs don't like politics or religion. Bwahahahah! You've never been to the cesspool called "Open Jam", are you? This subforum is relatively civilized, so a few OT threads don't hurt - then again, it's also self-regulating in most cases (meaning that they won't stay on top and gather 20 zillion inflammatory replies). Horrible effen way to die...... Exactly. Doesn't matter that it's a single man in a war where many men died, the way how he died shocks us way more in the guts than any statistic above 1000 people. As for "knowing what they're in for" - I don't think any truly knows or realizes until they'll feel the blade cutting. "You'll get in a possibly dangerous situation" doesn't cover it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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