Members Windreaper Posted February 15, 2005 Members Share Posted February 15, 2005 Hey, I've been looking for an inexpensive VA (something that I can bring to smoky bars and leave alone for a while without worries) synth for a while. I've decided that it should have full knob control (heck, that's the point of VA synths to me) so that pretty much limits options to Clavia Nord Lead 1/2, Roland JP-8000, Virus kB, Alesis ION and Korg Z1 even though last two don't exactly have a knob-per-parameter interface. What really keeps me puzzled is how each individual VA behaves with a heavy wall of guitars (yes, I play "sometimes progressive" rock/metal). I used to own a NL2 and it cut through with flying colors and rather pleasing results. They still run for something like 7-800 euros around these parts, which is bit too much for a disposable asset, so to say. Also, I wasn't too thrilled by the keyboard, display and the fact that it didn't send pgm change messages when I changed the program slot (hopeless trying to control an FX unit with it - I had to quickly flip one patch up and back down again which was very irritating). Anyway, I'd like some feedback from people who have actually used said synths (or something else, that works!) in a band with preferably 2 guitar players. I've found some instruments (mostly novations, ymmv, so no flames please) so plasticky, that they refuse to come through a dense guitar wall without pushing volume to ridiculous levels. I don't really care for fat sounds since the guitars and bass sort of got the lower spectrum covered. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Artur Meinild Posted February 15, 2005 Members Share Posted February 15, 2005 I think Nord Lead is definitely your best bet to "cut" through a wall of guitars... If you're lucky you might find a NL2 at 5-600 Euro or so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miket156 Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 That's tough. Does your band have a separate GOOD sound system and BIG stage amps? The key may be to keep the stage volume down to a reasonable level and let the PA do the work. I realize that guitars have to be at a certain minimum volume to sound right and get decent sustain, but if they're playing at 110db and up all the time, you're going to have an on going problem. The ION has a fairly mellow sound, and doesn't sound "digital". Pretty good for emulating classic RA sounds, but I think the Nord leads cut through volume better. The Nord is not alone with program change "problems", the ION won't do any better in that regard. You probably might want to eliminate it from your wish list, its not really setup to be a controller. Mike T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sizzlemeister Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 No offense, but I have a problem with the entire premise of the query here. If a DX7, an M1, an EX5, any JV etc. etc. will cut throught the mix then ANY friggin' VA will cut through a mix. This is what you'd call internet mythology: some VAs won't cut through a mix. Question: how many people here ACTUALLY play synths on stage with "a wall of guitars"? Hmmmmm? I have and do. Let me tell you this: ANY synth will cut through FINE. The question depends more on the amplification system, the EQ of said system, YOUR ears, and the sound tech's EARS and skills. So, choose not based on "what will cut through" icky icky bull{censored}...choose a synth that has the FEATURES and SOUND that YOU LIKE. And factor in to that getting an APPROPRIATE amplification system FOR SYNTHS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members coyote-1 Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 I have a JP8000. I run it through a vintage 200w Marshall Major stack... it cuts through just fine and sounds great. For reference we're playing ELP, KingCrimson, Yes, DeepPurple, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Windreaper Posted February 16, 2005 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 sizzlemeister: Yes, I'm to some extent aware of the very good points you made. It can be partly due to guitars being too wide making the entire mix sound rather mushy. Also, please take into account that as a hobbyist playing sporadically in small venues, I don't always have the luxury of a good PA system or even a sound engineer for that matter. Yes, I'm guilty of using the overly fashionable term "cut" so flame me. I have to admit that I'm wasn't being entirely objective in the use of the term, so I give you that. That wasn't my point, however. What I was implying was that I'd like to avoid saturating the mix (and I find novation synths do that, maybe it's just my lack of skills/ear, dunno) without resorting to heavy equalizing (something I'd like to save for compensating for space) or pushing the volume up too much. Other than that, I've yet to hear my XP-50 (with rather dark sound possibly due to low quality converters) deliver same kind of high freq clarity as for example my JD-800, JX-10 or NL2, so my ears must be obviously bad. I'm probably getting a JP-8000 as it sounds ok to my ears and has internal 2-band EQ and necessary effects (I'm using outboard FX for little reverb for all my synths depending on the space) plus the other features I need. Thanks for feedback, guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rauzi Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 Why not just buy some small onstage mixer where you EQ the synths and the guitars? You can always bring it with you, and feel alot more comfortable on stage with it next to you. Sorry... I just don't like PA guys ... They always think they're the only ones that have a good ear for the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shredhead666 Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 Originally posted by coyote-1 I have a JP8000. I run it through a vintage 200w Marshall Major stack... it cuts through just fine and sounds great. HOLY {censored}E!!!! That's probably the loudest tube amp ever. Lots of upper midrange boost too! No wonder! You could run about anything into that amp and cut through a mix of Jet Airplanes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members coyote-1 Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 It ain't about the volume (though it's nice to know that no banjoplayer can overwhelm my keys ). It's about the 'sweetening' effect of running the VA thru an all-tube amp. It sounds better to go thru the Marshall and then mic that into the PA than to put the JP8000 straight into the PA. BTW I also run my Hammond A100 (via a Pro3T) and a Stratocaster into that Marshall stack. You're right; everything that goes thru that amp sounds wonderful. Originally posted by shredhead666 HOLY {censored}E!!!! That's probably the loudest tube amp ever. Lots of upper midrange boost too! No wonder! You could run about anything into that amp and cut through a mix of Jet Airplanes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greenshag Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 never trust sound guys with a keyboard mix, most honestly don't know what to do with it. Buy yourself a little mixer that you can plug all your synths, effects, etc. into, then send the sound guy the feed from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcpro Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 Reverb is not your friend in the environment you describe, Windreaper. Your sound will have to be "in your face" in order to be heard through the guitars, and any reverb does exactly the opposite. If you feel you must add ambience to your synths, try a little delay...and just a little. For years I used Roland JV and XP (including the 50) synths onstage, and whatever one might think of their sound, "cutting" was never a problem with any of them if I took the time to tone down the effects and tailor their sound for live use. Whatever issues you have with the XP-50's DACs, I can assure you that it wasn't a factor in your live sound....I mean, subtlies like that are completely inaudible out of the studio.. So: Don't wash your sound out with effects. This means you will have to play more precisely...a lot of guys (esp. guitar players BTW) hide poor technique by slathering on a lot of effects. Don't get hooked on to sounds that sound good at home. Odds are they won't sound good onstage. Program for live use. One knob per function...man, unless you're into trance or something I'd pay more attention to the overall feel of the keyboard and type of left hand controls. And it's unfortunate that many VA's...Ion, MS2000, Nords...have the crappiest keyboards on them. The keyboards on the JP-8000, Z1, and Virus KB are all nice though....so they're not all bad, but I think sound-wise any of them would work if you spend time with them. I've been playing live several times a week in all kinds of situations for over 35 years, and that's my take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sizzlemeister Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 Originally posted by mrcpro Reverb is not your friend in the environment you describe, Windreaper. Your sound will have to be "in your face" in order to be heard through the guitars, and any reverb does exactly the opposite. If you feel you must add ambience to your synths, try a little delay...and just a little.For years I used Roland JV and XP (including the 50) synths onstage, and whatever one might think of their sound, "cutting" was never a problem with any of them if I took the time to tone down the effects and tailor their sound for live use. Whatever issues you have with the XP-50's DACs, I can assure you that it wasn't a factor in your live sound....I mean, subtlies like that are completely inaudible out of the studio.. So:Don't wash your sound out with effects. This means you will have to play more precisely...a lot of guys (esp. guitar players BTW) hide poor technique by slathering on a lot of effects.Don't get hooked on to sounds that sound good at home. Odds are they won't sound good onstage. Program for live use.One knob per function...man, unless you're into trance or something I'd pay more attention to the overall feel of the keyboard and type of left hand controls. And it's unfortunate that many VA's...Ion, MS2000, Nords...have the crappiest keyboards on them. The keyboards on the JP-8000, Z1, and Virus KB are all nice though....so they're not all bad, but I think sound-wise any of them would work if you spend time with them. I've been playing live several times a week in all kinds of situations for over 35 years, and that's my take on it. Uh-oh, now you did it. He/she is going to get uptight that you're saying he/she can't program their synth, and can't play well. And, of course, more resentment about his/her hearing. Yeesh. I take umbrage with your assessment of the Ion's keyboard; it's a pretty nice keybed for its intended role. The thing is supposed to be a lead synth and that keyboard is nice and slick when it comes to that. That's like people complaining the Electro doesn't have very good piano action! FWIW, back in the day I played with a very loud psychedelic roots rock revival original type of band. I used mainly a Korg DS-8 and a Poly 61, sometimes a Univox Roadrunner. My amplification was a SS Acoustic 200 watt head running through an 8x10 cab. I could drown out the entire band and still have plenty of dirty, gruffy headroom. My amp rig cost me $50 at a pawn shop. Whine whine whine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lancaster Posted February 16, 2005 Members Share Posted February 16, 2005 The best sounding keyboard player I was ever in a band with had a Marshall rig... Late 60s 100 W. head, 18" bass bin, 4x12 Greenback Celestions that he ran his Hammond w/Leslie sim.( forget which one ) and a synth through. It sounded awesome...big,full,powerful and still had very nice definition and clarity even in really big clubs. No problems keeping up with the other bandmates who were also all using Marshalls. The only keyboard player who never worried/complained about getting drowned out or overpowered. He did it right. If u wanna hang wit' the big boyz, you gotta use the big boy's toys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcpro Posted February 17, 2005 Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 Originally posted by sizzlemeister I take umbrage with your assessment of the Ion's keyboard; it's a pretty nice keybed for its intended role. The thing is supposed to be a lead synth and that keyboard is nice and slick when it comes to that. That's like people complaining the Electro doesn't have very good piano action! I dunno...when I played one I thought the keyboard was pretty flimsy for prog/bar rock...definitely not as solid as the synth action on better Korgs, Yamahas, Rolands. And it's tough to play leads in Bb...Eb...etc. with those stubby keys...but I know...it's only $799... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lancaster Posted February 17, 2005 Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 I played both a Ion and a Micron last week at The Store Where All The Money Goes and I was thinking that you sure would have to be extra careful using these things anywhere but a home studio. "Sturdy" is certainly not the first thought that popped into my head.Especially the Micron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike51 Posted February 17, 2005 Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 The Nord cuts into a mix really well but you are right the keys feel like {censored}. I would go for the Z1 or the JP8000. Solid build, good key action. The Z1 has less knobs but still enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tusker Posted February 17, 2005 Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 I play the kind of music you describe. I don't have anything new to offer you, but in my experience, the VA's don't really cut through much more than romplers. (Perhaps the Nord, but that's partly due to the fact I don't dunk it in reverb, and everything on a roland rompler comes pre-drenched.) Some suggestions (you may already be doing most of this): - Get good amplification and monitoring- Make sure your try out the patches in the band environment, and fine tune them- Some notes/voices will cut and others - won't. Pick your notes and voices- If you are soloing and the guitarists aren't giving you slack, it's not your keyboard's fault. Music is collaborative after all.- You can always play high end B3 tones, and all you'll have to compete with are cymbals and high hats.- Three mid-range instruments is a lot. Try staying out of sections of songs and coming in from time to time for dramatic contrast.- Simplify your sounds. Take some of the velocity sensitivity off some patches, take some layers off the pads. If all else fails, use Patch A56 on your XP30, the Jon Lord imitation organ and scream your way into the stratosphere. (Note that it has no reverb and it uses the booster algorithm. Two reasons why it cuts.) Hoping this helps, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Windreaper Posted February 17, 2005 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 Originally posted by sizzlemeister Uh-oh, now you did it. He/she is going to get uptight that you're saying he/she can't program their synth, and can't play well. And, of course, more resentment about his/her hearing. Yeesh. sizzlemeister: Actually, I only snapped back at you because I felt you were being offensive even though you gave some good pointers. Sorry for that and thanks for the tips. To clear it up once more: I don't give much for the cut/phat mumbo-jumbo - I was rather looking for a synth with good dry sound. Novation synths rely heavily on effects as far as I'm concerned (ymmv), so they wouldn't cut through as well as say Nords/JP-8000/Z1, right? Tusker: As for reverb, I only use a slight ambience verb so it's not having that drastic of an impact. I can't imagine playing piano without some. I turned the reverb switch off the very moment I received my XP-50. It doesn't sound all that good, and as you mentioned, every patch is drenched in it. I am running keyboards through a rather low power practice PA system (200W RMS shared with vocals) while guitarists hammer away through their 4x12s. I suppose the bottom line here is that, as with most, if I had mad engineering/production skills and top-flight gear I wouldn't be posting newbie questions on this forum . mrcpro: You are absolutely right about that. I like Korg Z1 a lot, but it's just too deep of a synth for me . If I could do without knobbage, I might just as well run softsynths on my laptop (maybe with a knobby controller, but it still isn't anywhere near as convenient than just picking up a synth and going). Knobs are the main selling point and attraction of VAs, at least for me. I just find it very rewarding to work on a sound while playing or practicing with band ("hmm, it's little too bright and needs some sustain, done and took only 2 secs"). Anyway, thank you for your time gentlemen. If I indeed appeared to be an ass, I apologize for that. It's just that I'd like someone pointing out what I'm doing wrong without telling me my question sucks and all my points are bs without really bothering to argumentate. Then again, I shouldn't get provocated so easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tusker Posted February 17, 2005 Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 Windreaper: I think it's cool of you to ask questions and take the opinions and feedback. Hang in there. In my opinion, you would do better getting better (dedicated) amplification, rather than a new synth, if your primary goal is to sound good with this band setup. Despite, having a couple of VA's, I end up using only a multi-timbral rompler in some live situations, simply because it is convenient. You can get 95% of the way there with your current instrument. 15 years ago, your instrument was a pro instrument of choice. Human ears have not changed that much. If you are looking for cutting leads, I have some for the /JVXP series. (They are in the Derek Sherinian/Jens Johannsen scaretheguitarist vein. ) Send me a private message if interested. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Windreaper Posted February 17, 2005 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 Originally posted by Tusker Windreaper: I think it's cool of you to ask questions and take the opinions and feedback. Hang in there. In my opinion, you would do better getting better (dedicated) amplification, rather than a new synth, if your primary goal is to sound good with this band setup. Actually we have a decent PA system (our singer works as a karaoke host , which we can use on most gigs, but with only couple of live performances a year it's not really worth the investment to make too large personal investments. Besides, I need a light (heck, my older stuff weights 15kg+) 2nd synth since I use a lot of splits and as you know, JVs/XPs have only 32 performance memories so you run out really fast. I might want to invest in a good quality multichannel keyboard amp/powered monitor for practice and small gigs (you don't really want to lug a heavy-as-sin 2000W PA system to a small venue). But seriously, thanks man, you've been most helpful again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sleepin' Deeper Posted February 17, 2005 Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 Originally posted by sizzlemeister I take umbrage Now that is one heck of a funny way to express yourself. LOL! Umbrage! LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcpro Posted February 17, 2005 Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 I apopogize if I came across as too harsh, Windreaper, but that wasn't my intent. I was addressing the most common mistake keyboard players make if they don't gig much...creating programs that sound absolutely stunning at home, only to find that they get buried onstage. That is NOT your problem!!!...and with the PA you describe I don't imagine the vocals get heard much either. I know how keyboard players think ('cause I happen to be one) ...we want to think keyboards first, but no keyboard is going to give you what you're looking for until you get better amplificatin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greenshag Posted February 17, 2005 Members Share Posted February 17, 2005 Originally posted by mrcpro I apopogize if I came across as too harsh, Windreaper, but that wasn't my intent. I was addressing the most common mistake keyboard players make if they don't gig much...creating programs that sound absolutely stunning at home, only to find that they get buried onstage. That is NOT your problem!!!...and with the PA you describe I don't imagine the vocals get heard much either. I know how keyboard players think ('cause I happen to be one) ...we want to think keyboards first, but no keyboard is going to give you what you're looking for until you get better amplificatin. this is referred to in the bass/guitar world as bedroom tone. Sounds great in the bedroom, but in a band settting, sounds like crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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