Members cold truth Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 ok well this has been short lived affair. i bought it knowing i may have to sell but i chanced it anyways. i know there are some revisions possibly being made about these sorts of threads........so if i am breaking new rules then i apologize. anyhow, if anyone is interested..... let me know. i can wheel and deal if need be i can go lower so long as it isnt something outrageous like $600 or something. its basically brand new (2 months old) and has all manuals, box, everything. thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Just FYI, Legally, if you sell your Motif ES Rack, you might also need to destroy all of the samples you have made of it. (I saw your "Does Anyone Sample Their Own Keyboards?" thread). ** Edited ** (included the word "might", since I am no legal expert. I wanted to make that clear). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J3RK Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Just out of curiosity, just how far does that extend. I mean, if you wrote a bunch of music that used it heavily, I believe that would constitute a sample. What separates the two in legal terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urbanscallywag Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Is that really true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by J3RK Just out of curiosity, just how far does that extend. I mean, if you wrote a bunch of music that used it heavily, I believe that would constitute a sample. What separates the two in legal terms? No. Manufacturers/developers who store their sample data in "digital format" are very clear with regards to licensing:-- songs, performances made with the device are legal-- resampling the basic sounds (i.e. to make your own soft-sampler version of the instrument) is not A person can probably legally re-sample an instrument for personal use (like to play with another keyboard or sampler) as long as you own the instrument. One you no longer have it, you would have to destroy the data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Bryce Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by MartinHines JLegally, if you sell your Motif ES Rack, you would also need to destroy all of the samples you have made of it. Wow - I've never heard that before...do you have a source on that? Two questions come to mind: 1) Who enforces that?2) How is it enforced/proven? Just curious... dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urbanscallywag Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 That's obscene. I wouldn't be surprised if its true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Bryce Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by MartinHines A person can probably legally re-sample an instrument for personal use (like to play with another keyboard or sampler) as long as you own the instrument. One you no longer have it, you would have to destroy the data. Okay, then...so if you use said instrument to create a song, then you sell the instrument, do you have to destroy the song, too? Suppose said song contains a phrase where only the instrument in question can be heard, enabling it to easily be sampled? Not trying to be funny - just wondering where the line is drawn. dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mytee2.0 Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by MartinHines Just FYI, Legally, if you sell your Motif ES Rack, you would also need to destroy all of the samples you have made of it. [ I saw your "Does Anyone Sample Their Own Keyboards?" thread). stalking much? please stop poo-pooing on peoples threads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J3RK Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Yeah, I've never heard this before. It wouldn't surprise me a bit, but it's also completely ridiculous. You owned the instrument when you made the sample. I would think that would fall under fair use. What if you're in a band, and you sample your board and give it to a band-mate for his sampler. (to in effect use in the same band) He's still the one holding the samples, not you (the one with the synth.) Does he have to buy the same board to use those samples? Also, what about a case where the synth can do more than one type of synthesis. Say the ROM samples fall under this law. What about if you sample say the VA portion of the same synth that has one portion protected under said law. I just don't think that I'd buy a synth if it had a license agreement to that effect. Does Steinway own the rights to a sample that came from one of their Pianos? There are tons of subtle cases that may or may not be applicable here, (however silly they may seem.) I'd really like to know more about this. (Not that it matters to me (I synthesize everything I use.)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urbanscallywag Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 The only way I see this as being reasonable is if it covers some hacked ROM so you can extract the information as files, not recordings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by Dave Bryce Wow - I've never heard that before...do you have a source on that? Two questions come to mind:1) Who enforces that?2) How is it enforced/proven? -- I am not a lawyer, so my only knowledge is what I have read, and seen posted by (primarily) sample library developers (like East-West, Spectrasonics, etc.), who may have a vested interest in discouraging use of "digital music samples" that may harm their own business interests. The topic comes up every once in a while in sample developer forums like Northern Sounds.[Translation: I may legally be completely wrong] -- Laws like the "Digital Millenium Copyright Act" of 1998 (in the U.S.) supposedly cover all digital content. That can be software, software samples, or digital samples burned on a chip. -- The basic intent of the law is clear: trying to protect individuals/companies' work (i.e. make sure they don't lose money). -- The DCMA does state that individuals are entitled to "fair use", which is purposely left vague. Also, other earlier laws/rulings have supported the right of "format transfer", as long as you are still legally licensed to use the original content Enforcement?Companies would have to sue individuals for violating copyrights, which in practical terms probably means you won't get sued unless you try to profit from it in an obvious way (like re-selling a sample library of that keyboard as a product). Proof? -- Even more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by J3RK Yeah, I've never heard this before. It wouldn't surprise me a bit, but it's also completely ridiculous. You owned the instrument when you made the sample. I would think that would fall under fair use. You may be correct. However, the concept of "fair use" might only hold while you still own the product. The legal rulings I have read make a big distinction between use for "musical works" vs. "samples". This isn't a big deal, and an individual who re-samples a product then sells the instrument is probably not going to get into trouble for it in "practical terms", especially if they only use the samples themselves and don't try to resell them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J3RK Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Ok, I can see it being a problem if you are selling unauthorized sample CDs ripped directly from synth X. That seems like a reasonable thing for someone to get upset over. If you buy a keyboard though, sample a few sounds from it, then sell it for whatever reason, I don't see why you'd need to destroy the samples. (though they may technically fall under that category, I don't see anyone getting in trouble for it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by Dave Bryce Okay, then...so if you use said instrument to create a song, then you sell the instrument, do you have to destroy the song, too?Suppose said song contains a phrase where only the instrument in question can be heard, enabling it to easily be sampled?Not trying to be funny - just wondering where the line is drawn.dB No. Digital instruments can be legally used to create musical performances . The intent to me is about "protecting people's work", whether that be a sample developer, keyboard manufacturer, OR performer. In the situation you mentioned where someone "sampled" a part of a song, then you would have DIFFERENT "protection of works" involved -- the protection of the original performer. Realistically, I am not sure what "line has been drawn":-- there have been plenty of "test cases" where sampling a musical performance have occured-- I am not aware of any cases where someone has tried to challenge/more clearly define what can be done with re-use of sample libraries or keyboard samples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Bryce Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by J3RK I don't see anyone getting in trouble for it.) Nor do I. Nor have I ever heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. Nor have I ever heard of anyone even speak of this being an issue...until today, of course... Martin, have you ever heard of anyone getting in any trouble for doing this? dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by J3RK Ok, I can see it being a problem if you are selling unauthorized sample CDs ripped directly from synth X. That seems like a reasonable thing for someone to get upset over. If you buy a keyboard though, sample a few sounds from it, then sell it for whatever reason, I don't see why you'd need to destroy the samples. (though they may technically fall under that category, I don't see anyone getting in trouble for it.) I would totally agree. In many situations there can be a big difference between what be legally correct versus what a person can get in trouble for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cold truth Posted July 19, 2005 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 one was a flute which i plan on keeping-sorry-no shame for me there. the other was a piano which wasnt all that satisfactory and wont remain..... i'll be getting another, i have some major label meetings coming soon that will afford me that ability. i just need the money NOW and thats a little ways off. i'll fall back on my old kontakt library for the meantime. now... anyone interested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pix Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Those software companies are the ones that are wrong and that supposed law is what they're probably are spreading as a rumour to try to back up they're scammy policies that only prevail to due the young age of the digital media. I say they're the ones that have to go down. You assure sucess by offering quality, not by restricting your customers (the percentage that actually pays for them) of reselling their products. Those companies won't ever see another penny from me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by Dave Bryce Nor do I. Nor have I ever heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. Nor have I ever heard of anyone even speak of this being an issue...until today, of course... Martin, have you ever heard of anyone getting in any trouble for doing this? dB No. I was on a forum once (I can't remember which one, given I visit so many), but someone specifically asked a manufacturer if it "was legal" to sample a keyboard, then sell a commercial sample library based on that keyboard. The manufacturer stated that would be considered a copyright infringement. As I said before, from a practical standpoint , people probably would only need to worry if they tried to make money off of re-sampling (effectively potentially taking money away from the "developer"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by J3RK Does Steinway own the rights to a sample that came from one of their Pianos? This is definitely a gray area here, but for example, Michiel Post (PMI sample libraries) has stated that he has paid piano manufacturers. Of course, this might just be him being "over-cautious" (i.e. he may have been under no legal obligation to do so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by cold truth one was a flute which i plan on keeping-sorry-no shame for me there. Cold Truth, I didn't intend to jump all over you -- Sorry. I saw your post, remembered your earlier post, and it made my think about this issue, so I commented on it. You don't have anything to worry about, since you are just using the sounds for your own use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 From what I have read, laws regarding what legally constitutes "fair use" have been purposely left vague. Allowing the concept, but not clearly definining it, effectively forces courts to rule on a individual basis. Again, I think everything centers around "intent","protecting someone's hard work", and "digital content". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BOBA JFET Posted July 19, 2005 Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by MartinHines No. I was on a forum once (I can't remember which one, given I visit some many), but someone specifically asked a manufacturer if it "was legal" to sample a keyboard, then sell a commercial sample library based on that keyboard.The manufacturer stated that would be considered a copyright infringement. I'm sure most manufacturers would like everybody to believe this is copyright infringement (and it may or may not be), but I wonder if anything like this has ever been challenged in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cold truth Posted July 19, 2005 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2005 ! lol 2 pages of comments and no buyer so sad for me. lol any takers? i'd even do a cash-and-trade for another piece- an xv 5050, emu vintage pro, or something along those lines. i need about $400 at LEAST but i am unwilling to sell that low so i am willingto deal... im very flexible here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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