Help me out with phrasing......please !

[Russ T Nail]

technique's not my problem.....................though it isn't great.

 

My main concern is phrasing. I am ok with scales, arpeggios(ish ) intervals etc, but phrasing drives me round the bend and is definitely my biggest deficiency in improvisation.

 

It is so frustrating to hear a cool piece ina mag or book, check the tab and find it's really easy and based on just a few notes. What makes it, is the placement of those notes.

 

Any hints or tips would be mot welcome

 

thanks amigos

 

Russ T

[gtrdave]

Good phrasing has elements of being:

melodic

lyrical

catchy

in context with the song

interesting in general

 

Being a singer or having the passionate elements of a singer help a lot with soloing.

Think of how a good singer works in the words and melody over whatever rhythm instruments are playing the foundation...or think of how a REALLY good singer can perform a capella and sound stunning.

 

THAT'S how you should approach your solo/lead playing.

 

More than notes and scales, your playing should have indications of mood, feeling, color, texture, etc...attitude!

 

My phrasing education started decades ago with Jeff Beck's "Blow by Blow" record and listening to violinists play paraphrases from Bizet's "Carmen".

 

My advice: start trying to copy what a singer is singing with your guitar.

See what happens.

[thamiam]

 

Originally posted by gtrdave My advice: start trying to copy what a singer is singing with your guitar. See what happens.

 

 

That's the goldmine, right there. I'd recommend playing along with Otis Redding, Smokey Robinson, Billie Holliday, Dr. John, Frank Sinatra and Barbra Streisand (don't laugh, her phrasing is impeccable).

 

All of them used very little notes and "histrionics" to create very heavy emotional impacts.

[Fred5]

Phrasing to me is a lot of things combined but

the most important thing gotta be rhythm and rhytmic variation. What Dave says is important,

singers doesn't just run scales or arps up and down unless they are practicing or warming up.

 

Anyway, I would recommend two things, emulate

singers - that's what Dave said - and practice

to subdivied scales and licks in different configurations, half notes, quarter note triplets,

quarter notes, eight notes and so on. Use a metronome or a beat box to keep track. You could also practice irritatingly simple stuff like playing long sustainig notes and short staccato

notes, they probably will come creeping into

your playing by themselves after a while.

[tshapiro]

A couple of suggestions:

 

1) My improving is not total improv, I generally have melodic ideas worked out ahead of time that I build on

 

2) Record 1/2 hour or so of mindless wanking on the guitar. Then, listen to the tape for melodic ideas that you stumbed across and memorize them. Each time you do this you may find a riff or 2 that's worth repeating.

 

3) Steal simple everyday riffs from odd places like the theme from I Dream Of Jeannie. Many of the classics will work over all types of music and sound very cool in another context.

 

4) For me, a standard for a good riff is one that a non-musician can hum after hearing it a couple of times.

 

Todd

[bob-ingram]

Sing your parts, really. Singers like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett are artists at phrasing.

 

Listen to other instruments, especally wind instruments like Sax or Trumpet. One problem with guitar is we play geometrically, in shapes not in melody, where horn players play in melody.

 

Breathe. Good phrasing breathes. Listen to Carlos Santana and how he stops......thinks...........then plays. Listen to Jeff Beck and how he changes tones constantly, thinking about what he'll play with the new tone, sometimes stopping and starting again.

 

Listen to the old Blues guitarists like T-Bone and BB. These guys know how to phrase. Notice how they breathe, leaving spaces where a singer would stop to breathe.

 

Play the notes between the notes. Bend a minor third halfway to a major third. Play a 5th slightly flat, then bend it into tune. Listen and learn from the masters at playing the notes in between like Jimi and BB.

 

I hope this stuff helps.

[Russ T Nail]

Originally posted by Bob Ingram I hope this stuff helps.

 

Indeed it does Bob. Many thanks to you all for a very constructive response. It raised some excellent points particularly the comparison to vocal phrasing.

 

It's always fascinated me that there are any number of books covering technique but few emphasise the importance of phrasing.

 

Thanks again amigos, hope I get the chance to repay you sometime

 

Russ T

[SonicTonic]

Some thoughts,

 

I'll second the horn players. They have to breathe literally. Look at horn music and you'll notice that they play in two or four bar measurements before they take rest. This is because they have to breathe. This gives the passage a singing quality that people can digest. We all have to blink. Study horn players such as Parker, Davis, Getz, etc..

 

Guitarists don't have to stop, we don't have to breathe. That is why we noodle.

 

Take the initial two or four bar phrase and develop it. Expand on it in little increments.

 

Another idea is to take the rhythm skeleton of a drum piece (the ride or the snare) over about two to four bars and put some melody notes to it. This will help with the rhythm.

[thamiam]

 

Originally posted by SonicTonic Guitarists don't have to stop, we don't have to breathe. That is why we noodle.

 

 

This is why other musicians hate being in groups with guitarists. They don't feel the need to conserve their breath or embouchere, so they noodle whenever they get a free millisecond. And drummers are even worse. So many of them just endlessly noodle and beat around when people are trying to tune, trying to talk, trying to listen, or just trying to swallow some {censored}ing Excedrin because their head is splitting from the constant barrage of noise.

 

If you don't want the nearest horn player to kick a hole in your amp, please do not noodle during rehearsals. Noodling in between songs on a gig is grounds for immediate flogging.

Noodling in your solo instead of phrasing properly is accepted, because then you just sound like an idiot, and people can laugh at you without going into a homicidal rage.

[Robben Cain]

from a technical standpoint guitarist tend to solo using phrasing that is easy to play. Often times guitarists approach a phrase in terms of a visual pattern on the fretboard where as a sax player thinks in terms of notes. That is why guitarist tend to sound scalar and therefore kinda lame as compared to sax players. Try not to let your fingers do the walking, because often times it ends sounding like wanking. Instead try to think of how you want something to sound and then play it. This will help you with the idea of "BREATH."

[Vikram Hazra]

I cdnt agree more with Bob Ingram, that was so well put.

Another, if slightly abstract idea I wd offer wd be to think of yr entire piece of music as a conversation. In that context, your solo wd be your contribution to the discussion at that point. Many times, I have found that simply "speaking" out those ideas on guitar translates into much less "obvious" solos.

Another good way to improve phrasing (and yr overall approach to music too) wd be to study paintings, architecture or photographs rather than listening to music all the time...appreciating how these artists organize their ideas is a great inspiration to us...

Have fun!

PS If yu record yr stuff, then often the first thing yu play (barely consciously) in the morning has the seeds of a great composition...

[SonicTonic]

 

Originally posted by thamiam This is why other musicians hate being in groups with guitarists. They don't feel the need to conserve their breath or embouchere, so they noodle whenever they get a free millisecond. And drummers are even worse. So many of them just endlessly noodle and beat around when people are trying to tune, trying to talk, trying to listen, or just trying to swallow some {censored}ing Excedrin because their head is splitting from the constant barrage of noise. If you don't want the nearest horn player to kick a hole in your amp, please do not noodle during rehearsals. Noodling in between songs on a gig is grounds for immediate flogging. Noodling in your solo instead of phrasing properly is accepted, because then you just sound like an idiot, and people can laugh at you without going into a homicidal rage.

 

 

I had to pick up the saxophone in order to completely understand the importance of phrasing and BREATH.

[J the D]

 

Originally posted by gtrdave My phrasing education started decades ago with Jeff Beck's "Blow by Blow" record.

 

 

Should be required listening for any prospective guitar player.

 

Another phrasing technique is to sing the line then try to play it the way you sang it. We tend to be more relaxed singing than when playing an instrument and naturally do a better job phrasing.

[Russ T Nail]

Gentlemen,

 

may I thank you all again for your advice. I am printing this off and putting it by the side of my guitar stand

 

Any more contributions are equally welcome

 

take care, amigos

 

Russ T

[Reposki]

heh... My paino teacher right now hates how I phrase my solos. How I noodle them rather...

 

So he's given me a simple exercise for soloing over 12 bar blues.

 

Very simple.

 

A A B

 

Meaning play a simple (2 notes) phrase, repeat it... Then vary it. Next time, add a note to the phrase. Repeat that new phrase, then vary it... Theme and variation.

 

Since you can repeat the 12 bar blues infinitely, I'd practice it until the simple 2 note pattern becomes as complex as I can make it... Or as simple as I wish to keep it.

 

It's an interesting way of looking at soloing, very formulated... But a very different perspective from noodling.

 

My piano teacher makes a lot of references to Miles Davis, who went out and did very simple things when it was popular for jazzers to 'wank' away their solo time.

 

Then I went and took that idea (theme and variation) over to the guitar and came up with a fun little piece.

 

 

 

As for singing, that's bang on... Melody comes so much more naturally from the voice. I like to whistle as opposed to singing... Though my whistling sounds like crap too, the idea is still there.

[StratKat]

It may have been already said here but the breathing thing is the key!

 

Try to play as you would speak. Short sentaces when you want to make a direct point. Smae with making a dramtic phrase, keep it short.

 

Use the same speech rhythms you talk with. Get loud when you would shout, and play soft when you want to tell/play a secret.

 

Shredding with long fluid movements like Yngvie or Satch is fine, but it gets old. Learn to speak your music through your fingers and play a good story!