Should I inject stuff into my kids lessons?

[NuttyGambler]

I have two kids 8 and 11 who are taking lessons from a great lady. She has 50 students and a waiting list to get in. She awards points each week for effort and things, they currently are #1 and #3 of all her students. They are doing well and enjoying themselves.

 

OK, finally to my question. They are learning all the scales by sight reading the notes. Near as I can tell, no pattern discussion is being given to them. I did show my daughter, the E blues pattern in the 12 position (as I know they are not working in that part of the neck) and tell her she can move this pattern anywhere on the neck for different keys. I really do not want to offend the teacher or anything, but learning stuff via patterns so you can more naturally just "jam" without worring about playing a "wrong" note makes so much sense.

 

I guess, I don't want to mess up someone's teaching methods, or anything, but I do want to try to get them to where they just start having fun with the guitar too, rather then just do what the teacher says. Or should I discuss it with the teacher?

 

NOTE: I am a beginner myself, just read a great deal, and do take lessons every other week for a guy who gigs, and he answers my questions and gives me pointers. (I'm 37 - a little late to the party but something I've always wanted to do)

[TeleCastrMaster]

I say- don't do it.

As long as the kids are having fun and learning, they're getting something that I bet 99% of us DIDN'T get- the ability to read music and to learn the instrument from the ground up.

When I was a beginner, I learned:

1. 1st position chords from diagrams
2. Barre chords and the I-IV-V progression
3. Pentatonic, then blues, scales.

While you can go a long way with this stuff, it's pretty easy to learn at any stage. The hard part is learning to read, learning proper technique, and learning the discipline to practice productively.

Say you teach your kids some cool stuff- there's a possibility that they'll just want to jam on it, and not practice the music from their formal lessons, stop taking their lessons seriously, and/or stop taking their teacher seriously.

Let them take full advantage of the opportunity to learn the right way. As they mature and develop their talent, THEN help them broaden themselves.

Of course, if they are borerd with or don't like their lessons, I might consider teaching them some fun stuff as a reward for diligently practicing the formal stuff...

[ralphster007]

I wouldn't do a thing unless they asked you to.

[335clone]

I'd discuss it with their teacher, and see if there are things you could show them that will compliment what she is doing. Maybe she could supply some ideas that will advance the concepts she is teaching, or songs that fit within their knowledge. You do not want to confuse them, or detract from their lessons. In the end, you are paying her to teach them HER way, and you should either respect her approach, or pull them out and teach them yourself.

[WattsUrizen]

Learning from notation is much better than learning from the fretboard.

[StratKat]

As someone who used to teach here is my opp.

If the kids are ready for soloing and comping then teach them the pattern thing. If they are just starting off then let the teacher do it her way and just encourage the hell out of the kids with praise. Sometimes even going to the point of making them think they can HELP you by purposely screwing up something they know how to play. Let them share what they are learning with you and the reward will be an increased effort on their part to learn more.

Pattern playing can and has been the death of more potential students than anything ive seen outside of just quiting.

Pattern playing is great for getting a fast up and running thing going but it cuts your legs off later when notation is required and solid theory needed that was left out earlier. Because it is the actual loss of learning and memorizing the individual notes being played on demand that pattern playing ruins. It causes a reflex thing in playing that can tend to become boring to listeners. I can listen to ten people playing both conventional playing and pattern playing and most of the time (cough - i said most) i can tell you which they are. I hear a definte loss of creativity in accomplished players using patterns when compared to the same level of standard taught players. Perhaps though its my imagination.?

And i by the way am a strong supporter of pattern playing. So much so that i wrote my own l;essons below using them. Why then do i teach what i condemn? Because pattern playing and boxes have their legitimate place in music just the same as conventional methods. Its just that pattern playing when introduced to people who are learning leadwork gets them into a more advanced state quicker. It can overcome some hurdles along the way for semi accomplished players. But its no substitute for the old fashioned and harder notation thing and learning all the scales by memorizing the note names and playing them through recolection rather than by reflex.

[WattsUrizen]

I think StratKat makes some good points, and I'll just add something further:

As a teacher also, I must encourage beginners to learn proper notation, since this opens up many more doors. If you learn via the fretboard you are confined to the guitar.

That being said, as StratKat points out, recognising 'patterns' can help you learn some nice guitar tricks and licks quickly, without having to go through the more tedious theoretical aspects. But I would only encourage this once a student has developed some decent musical skills.

[StratKat]

Yes, i agree completely. The pattern thing is for more advanced players rather than beginners. I consider it to be something to learn after chords, scales, notation, tabs, theory and progressions.

[NuttyGambler]

Thanks everyone for your take on things, glad I asked. Especially StratCat, because I must have misread your stuff on the net. I had taken it to mean traditional ways of learning the scales is not required.

I am no teacher and therefore do not want to come across as one, I am starting out at an older age, and just want to have fun, so for me this pattern things is great.

The daughter has been in piano for about a year before guitar so was able to leap ahead when it came to music, the boy 8 is just doing guitar, but can play the melody at the same time his is singing (something I think is very difficult).

So I am going to keep my hands/comments out of it. Last night my daughter and I were goofing with a song, and I went off and just started improvising, she smiled and asked. "Where did you get the notes". I just said, that I with a pattern in the right key you really can't play a wrong note. The curiousity is there, but all in due time.

They are both very young, and have lots of time to learn some of the short cuts. I will do my thing, and they will do theres. As to the comment of them impressing me (or me making mistakes on purpose. LOL make plenty on my own thanks.). they do impress me, because they can pick up any piece of paino music and play the melody, something I'll never be able to do.

[Fred5]

I think your kids will benefit from your enthusiasm and your approach to music which
seem to be quite different to their teacher's.

[WattsUrizen]

Originally posted by NuttyGambler Thanks everyone for your take on things, glad I asked. Especially StratCat, because I must have misread your stuff on the net. I had taken it to mean traditional ways of learning the scales is not required. I am no teacher and therefore do not want to come across as one, I am starting out at an older age, and just want to have fun, so for me this pattern things is great. The daughter has been in piano for about a year before guitar so was able to leap ahead when it came to music, the boy 8 is just doing guitar, but can play the melody at the same time his is singing (something I think is very difficult). So I am going to keep my hands/comments out of it. Last night my daughter and I were goofing with a song, and I went off and just started improvising, she smiled and asked. "Where did you get the notes". I just said, that I with a pattern in the right key you really can't play a wrong note. The curiousity is there, but all in due time. They are both very young, and have lots of time to learn some of the short cuts. I will do my thing, and they will do theres. As to the comment of them impressing me (or me making mistakes on purpose. LOL make plenty on my own thanks.). they do impress me, because they can pick up any piece of paino music and play the melody, something I'll never be able to do.

 

 

Maybe I should just clarify things. Again, I'll stress that it's much better to learn proper notation. However, that being said, encouraging your kids to peek into the rich world of improvisation might not be a bad idea, as long as your kids recognise that learning 'patterns' is not a substitute for notation, and that relating notes to the fretboard is more of a geometric mnemonic device rather than proper musical technique.

 

I still wouldn't take it up with the teacher though. If you can goof around with your kids, I think that will give them plenty of enthusiasm.

[StratKat]

I guess i should clarify myself abit too....

Patterns are just one tool in a well rounded players toolbox. They arnt the end-all idea or program to beat all others.

Pattern playing has definite merit over traditional forms exclusively in one thing. Its fast to learn all the scales in all the modes for any key.

Why?

Because in traditional forms of music you HAVE to know each and every single note name in every key for every scale and call them up on command while playing and trying to think of WHAT melody to play. That takes years of hard work to be able to do. Thats also why i respect anyone who endures traditional and classical music. They HAVE to work MUCH harder than rock, blues, country, or even JAZZ artists.

So to get up and running the pattern thing is good, but if you allow it to totally dominate your style you hit walls later on. To be really versatile you need as much info from MANY types of lessons and teachings.

When i was learning lead playing i kept running up against these people who wouldnt help me. They had the old attitude of "I learned it the hard way so YOU have to learn it the hard way!"

That torqued me off to no end. When i learned pattern playing it jumped my abilities a thousand percent almost instantly. So it was a tremendous boost to my skill level and made playing so much easier because i wasnt spending all that time trying to figure out how many sharps in this key or flats in that one and which note is the flat 3rd of an A min scale and where are all the Bb's on the neck.....etc......etc.......etc.......

So pattern playing can be the key to get you to where you want to go, after the basics are covered.I dont think i have ever meant to give the impression that the basics or formal teachings are less powerful or important than pattern playing. I have tried to give the impression that pattern playing is a fast way to recognize minors, majors, sclaes, modes, and give a fast way to move around the neck without much thought.

But i have many keys on my keyring! And in different situations i use them all.

Because i learned notation as well as tab i can read any peice of music and ADD to my knowledge of licks whether its for guitar, bass, piano, tuba, clarinet, trombone, sax..... And because i did have to learn all about key signatures and scales formerly (as i was a horn player for years) i understand flats and sharps and double sharps and accidentals and all the techy stuff so I can TALK music to others on practically any level. That can add to your versatility and knowledge alot when you know how to ask a question about music.

For the outright beginner who knows nothing about guitar i always suggest learning notation along with chords and tab. I never go into pattern playing until the person is ready for lead work and has already covered the basics. But sometimes i teach people who already know chords with no formal background and they WANT to learn leadwork FAST! Remember that in my free lessons i specifically state that they are for the INTERMEDIATE player, not the rank beginner. They are intended for helping people get over the intial hurtle of learning the neck and scales for soloing and ear training.

So for the guy who knows some guitar and is starting to delve into leads and wants my help what should i do?

WHO am I to tell them no?...you have to go back and start all over?.... Nope, I wont do that! I give them what they want, and that usually entails pattern playing. And for those type people it satisfies them.

I found along time ago that different people have different expectations for what they want to learn and will tolerate learning. I give what a student wants in regards to improving their skills. Not necessarily what i think they need. Thats why i dont teach songs or transcribe for kids. Its a waiste of time in my opp. I give tools for them to train their ears so THEY can teach themselves songs.

Anyway, i know im long winded but wanted to try and make the point. Pattern playing is one aspect that works for some, not others, and has its merits and drawbacks like ALL forms of music instruction. Get as much as ya want as often as ya can!

[NuttyGambler]

Got it. Thanks again.

Over the weekend, we dug out a Christmas Guitar book, it was so much fun with me playing the fairly simple chords and my daughter playing the notes of the melody.

I think I have my answer. I am going to work hard on my own rhythm/chord playing. Forcing myself to stay away from the patterns until I have a real solid grasp of playing most songs. I am finally seeing progress in this area and it is exciting.

After I have done, that I am going to go back to the pattern training, and by then, I will be better prepared myself. If they show interest in my jam sessions, I will discuss it with the teacher and let them mess with it too.