Time signatures

[EricRayHendrix]

Time signatures

 

What are they?

 

How do they work?

 

And how do I tell what the time sig is on a song?

[r0g3r]

The time signature is the fraction you often see at the beginning of a piece of notation.

 

The numerator tells how many beats are in a measure. The denominator tells the duration of these beats.

 

For instance a signature of 3/4 means that you play 3 quarter notes per measure. A signature of 9/8 means you play 9 eighth notes. 9/8 can also be viewed as a "compound triple" timing, which means that each bar has multiple "triplets" each triplet representing one beat (quarter note)

[WattsUrizen]

Careful Roger, compound time N/8 is not triplets. Nor are the beats quarter notes. They are three eighth (or one quarter and an eighth) notes long.

 

Eg: 6/8 has two beats, since there are two groups of three eighth notes. 15/8 has five beats, since there are five groups of three eighth notes.

 

It should also be noted that 3/8 is simple time, since there is only three eighth notes in the bar.

 

With time signatures, you can also extend them to the form x1/y1 + x2/y2 + ... + xN/yN. For example, you can have time signatures such as 2/4 + 3/8, or even something totally ridiculous like 2/2 + 3/8 + 9/16 + 3/32 (I might have to try that one day).

 

These aren't any more complicated than time sigs such as 4/4 or 3/4. For example, in 2/4 + 3/8, there are two quarter note beats, followed by one quarter-and-an-eighth beat, so there are three beats in all.

 

In that disgustingly long example above, there are two half note beats, followed by three eighth note beats (or one quarter-and-an-eighth beat), followed by three eighth-and-a-sixteenth beats, followed by three thirty second (or one sixteenth-and-a-thirty second beat).

 

So the general idea behind time signatures is as Roger said: The bottom numbers represent the 'beats' or division of the bar, by taking their reciprocal. For example, if the bottom number is 4, the reciprocal is 1/4, so the beats are quarter notes. If the bottom number is 2, the reciprocal is 1/2, so the beats are half notes.

 

The top number refers to how many of those 'beats' there are. So if the top number is a 4, there are four beats in the bar. If the top number is a 2, there are two beats in the bar.

 

So 4/4: Take the bottom number, which is 4. The reciprocal is 1/4, so the beats are quarter notes. The top number is 4, so there are four beats. So we have four quarter notes per bar.

 

3/2: The bottom number is 2, the reciprocal is 1/2, so the beats are half notes. The top number is 3, so there are three beats. So we have three half notes per bar.

 

Now let's look at compound time. These are easy to pick out, as they'll be of the form 3x/8 (or 16 or 32). So time signatures such as 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, 15/8, .... 108/8, 918/8, etc. are all compound time. It is called compound time since the beats are not 'simple', in that the beats are not half notes or quarter notes or eighth notes, etc. The beats are 'dotted'. They are quarter-and-an-eighth, eighth-and-a-sixteenth, etc.

 

So is there are a formula? Of course! If your compound time is 3x/8, the beat length is three eighth notes long. If it is 3x/16, the beat length is three sixteenth notes long. So for compound time, the beat length is 3 of the bottom number in the time signature.

 

You should also be aware that sometimes we say this differently as a 'note and a half'. This is because if you take 6/8, there are two beats, each three eighth notes long. But three eighth notes are equal to one quarter note and one eighth note. An eighth note is one half of a quarter note, so that is where the 'note and a half' comes from.

[Flanger]

Also, different beats get emphasis in different time sigs. 2/4 and 4/4 may seem like the same thing, but 4/4 gets emphasis on the 2 & 4 beats, while 2/4 gets emphasis on the 1 beat.

[WattsUrizen]

Err... 4/4 has emphasis on the 1st and 3rd beats. 4/4 is strong downbeat, then weak upbeat, then medium downbeat, then weak upbeat.

[Flanger]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris Err... 4/4 has emphasis on the 1st and 3rd beats. 4/4 is strong downbeat, then weak upbeat, then medium downbeat, then weak upbeat.

 

 

Not in rock, which this guy is probably playing.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by Flanger Not in rock, which this guy is probably playing.

 

 

Err.. Sorry, it applies to music in general. Doesn't matter what genre. Rock uses syncopation in the standard 'backbeat', but this doesn't make 4/4 have downbeats on 2 and 4.

[Flanger]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris Err.. Sorry, it applies to music in general. Doesn't matter what genre. Rock uses syncopation in the standard 'backbeat', but this doesn't make 4/4 have downbeats on 2 and 4.

 

 

syn

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by Flanger Never said anything about the downbeats; I said emphasis on the 2 and 4.

 

 

You are talking about a specific example. In general 4/4 has downbeats or emphasis on the 1st and - to a lesser extent - on the 3rd beats.

 

Sure, the 'backbeat' has emphasis on the 2nd and 4th, but this is not normal for 4/4, it requires additional structure.

[r0g3r]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris Careful Roger, compound time N/8 is not triplets. Nor are the beats quarter notes. They are three eighth (or one quarter and an eighth) notes long.

 

 

You'll note that first I said that the 9/8 time is 9 eighth notes. Then I said this can also be interpreted, and often is as 3 beats of 3 eighth notes each. Each "beat" is a triplet.

 

Imagine a 3/4 time signature with 3 eighth note triplets in each measure. Each triplet is a quarter note in duration. This is 9/8 time.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by r0g3r Imagine a 3/4 time signature with 3 eighth note triplets in each measure. Each triplet is a quarter note in duration. This is 9/8 time.

 

 

In terms of 'feel', 3/4 in triplets and 9/8 are the same. But I think it should be stressed that the beats in compound time are not quarter notes, since three eighth notes does not make a triplet.

 

I see what you are getting at, and I think it is useful to help facilitate learning of compound time, but for the sake of precision, I must clarify.

[r0g3r]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris In terms of 'feel', 3/4 in triplets and 9/8 are the same. But I think it should be stressed that the beats in compound time are not quarter notes, since three eighth notes does not make a triplet. I see what you are getting at, and I think it is useful to help facilitate learning of compound time, but for the sake of precision, I must clarify.

 

 

The reason they are called compound triple time signatures, is because they consist of multiple triplets.

 

Let's take as an example "Manic Depression" by Jimi Hendrix. This song is in 9/8. You can count along in 3/4 - 1, 2, 3 giving each number a quarter note value, or you can count along 1,2,3 1,2,3 1,2,3 giving each series of 3 counts the duration of a quarter note.

 

http://www.music.indiana.edu/som/theory/t511/meter.html

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by r0g3r The reason they are called compound triple time signatures, is because they consist of multiple triplets. Let's take as an example "Manic Depression" by Jimi Hendrix. This song is in 9/8. You can count along in 3/4 - 1, 2, 3 giving each number a quarter note value, or you can count along 1,2,3 1,2,3 1,2,3 giving each note the duration of an eight note triplet. http://www.music.indiana.edu/som/theory/t511/meter.html

 

 

Three eighth notes does not make a triplet. Not to say that triplets don't occur in compound time, of course they do, but three eighth notes and triplets are different things entirely.

 

Compound triple refers to three beats in the bar. These beats are not triplets, they are dotted quarter notes.

 

If a song is in 9/8, then it goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Sure, thinking of it as three bars of 3/4 may help you in some instances, no doubt. But in general, the distinction should be made.

[r0g3r]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris Three eighth notes does not make a triplet. Not to say that triplets don't occur in compound time, of course they do, but three eighth notes and triplets are different things entirely. Compound triple refers to three beats in the bar. These beats are not triplets, they are dotted quarter notes. If a song is in 9/8, then it goes 1 , 2, 3, 4 , 5, 6, 7 , 8, 9. Sure, thinking of it as three bars of 3/4 may help you in some instances, no doubt. But in general, the distinction should be made.

 

 

Well I'll simply have to disagree with you. I think we do however agree on the fundamental function of the time signature. We only differ in our means of describing it.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by r0g3r Well I'll simply have to disagree with you. I think we do however agree on the fundamental function of the time signature. We only differ in our means of describing it.

 

 

I think you are right there.

[r0g3r]

Originally posted by Anomandaris I think you are right there.

 

I don't even really disagree with what you're saying actually. I mean, I think the durations of the beats are just as you said, dotted eight notes. If we compare this to a chopped up version of 3/4 however, which is really what compound timing is, then each beat is the same as a triplet. This is why compound triple signatures are often used to obtain a "triplet feel," as in The above cited Hendrix song Manic Depression where Mitch Mitchell is playing tri-pl-et tri-pl-et tri-pl-et. Which is the same thing really as the accent pattern that you described above.

 

Anyways, sorry my description offended your highly accute sense of technical correctness

[WattsUrizen]

Originally posted by r0g3r Anyways, sorry my description offended your highly accute sense of technical correctness

 

Yes, it did!

 

I think it is the only distinction I am making. In terms of 'sound' what you are describing is fine, and I should emphasise that, since I am quite sure you are aware of what you are getting at, and not mistaking it for absolute technical precision.

 

I can't disagree that compound time signatures give a 'triplet feel', but my highly acute sense of technical correctness impels me to state that the beats in compound time are not actually triplets, and that 9/8 is something different from 3/4 in triplets, or three bars of 3/4 'feel'.

 

But anyway...

 

What was the original question of the thread?

[Neilsonite]

Hi guys interesting topic, I was just wondering about Manic Depression...

While I agree that Mitch is clearly playing three groups of three beats in each bar (ie 9/8), with the accent on the one of each group, it _feels_ to me like 3/4.

At risk of entering into the debate on 1 & 3 vs 2 & 4 accents in 4/4 (to me it depends on if you're a kick or a snare fan), Jimi's part seems to me to group the bar into 1-2-3 - a typical 3/4 feel (if you favour snares, otherwise bold the 1), rather than the more evenly-accented 9/8 feel I associate with Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring, for example.

Do you knowledgable people think I'm wrong (rather than just subjectively different) in believing that Manic Depression is in 3/4 with a triplet feel, rather than in 9/8?

Neilsonite

[WattsUrizen]

Here is the only difference I can think of between 9/8 and three bars of 3/4 in triplets.

 

In 3/4 there is a downbeat followed by two upbeats.

 

In 9/8 there is three groups of a downbeat followed by two upbeats. However, in 9/8, the first downbeat is stronger than the other two.

 

Compare this with 2/4 and 4/4. Why isn't 4/4 two bars of 2/4? Because in 4/4 the second downbeat is not as strong as the first.

 

The point being that the downbeat which occurs on the first beat of the bar is the absolute strongest, without equal, since it marks the beginning of the bar.

[r0g3r]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris Here is the only difference I can think of between 9/8 and three bars of 3/4 in triplets. In 3/4 there is a downbeat followed by two upbeats. In 9/8 there is three groups of a downbeat followed by two upbeats. However, in 9/8, the first downbeat is stronger than the other two.

 

 

That's what causes the confusion with Manic Depression. The drums (in my opinion) are playing in 9/8 time. The guitar however, on it's own, would probably be considered to be in 3/4. So it's very easy to count it either way.

[StratKat]

Gawd i love these threads!

 

 

 

 

Here is a simple laymans idea of notation key signatures i heard from a guy i gave lessons too years ago.

 

 

Okay, first off , man likes to decode and catagorize everything so take any song and break it into even parts and call them measures.

 

Then count how many times you tap your foot in one measure and call that beats .

 

So if you tap your foot 4 times it has 4 beats so they calls this quarter notes. (yes, i know guys. this isnt accurate).

 

Next ya gots to know what notes to play so they put these thingys called sharps and flats on the staff by the time signature thingy. That tells ya what notes arnt regular in a C scale.

 

If it has 3 flats use the name of the next-to-last flat for the key of the song.

 

And if it has sharps then you take the last sharp shown and raise it one fret name (half step) and thats the key/scale of the song.

 

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Anyway, technically this may not be extremely accurate but for people who dont want hi tech theory it works....