Is it ever possible to really understand the fretboard...

[Rocinante]

... the way you can learn say, to play a scale? Or is it something you can only come to grips with through years of active playing experience?

[thamiam]

You can intellectualize it all you want, but it takes familiarity to become a master.

I mean, when you think about the fretboard, it is a very simple concept.

6 strings, In intervals of fourths except for one interval of a 3rd, and each fret represents a half step. The entire concept can be explained to a 6 year old in about 2 minutes.

But knowing it so well that you never make a mistake, well that takes time and practice, and there's no way around it. (And even then, you'll make mistakes, so why fret about it?)

[Rocinante]

Hm, yeah. Well I wasn't talking about becoming a master. I'm simply referring to the concept of being able to visualise interval relationships on the fretboard. It's a bit of a grey area for me. My knowledge of the fretboard was mostly formed within the first 3-4 years of playing. No matter how hard I continue to try and learn to 'see' it in new ways, I can only see the landmarks I already knew back then. If that makes any sense.

[XXX]

I found that the Fretboard logic or CAGED system made a giant step for me in understanding the fretboard.. also check out
Uncle Tims building blocks system.

[Rocinante]

Originally posted by Xprmntl Gtr I found that the Fretboard logic or CAGED system made a giant step for me in understanding the fretboard.. also check out Uncle Tims building blocks system.

 

CAGED I actually discovered before it became 'popular', and I have one of the Fretboard Logic books but I must say I didn't find it very useful. Who's this Uncle Tim, and where can I find his system?

[Fred5]

Probably not, I don't even understand the question

If one knows the scales, chords and arpeggios,
all one needs to do is get there in time. I run out of fingers perpetually.

[jfreaksho]

I still picture intervals on a keyboard, and I haven't played piano on a regular basis since about the time I started guitar nearly 8 years ago. I think most people should learn piano first, simply because it is one of the most complex instruments that is also fairly easy to play. Guitar is more challenging to me, sometimes, because of the tight fit of certain chords, or odd voicings that twist my fingers.
J.

[thamiam]

Originally posted by Rocinante Hm, yeah. Well I wasn't talking about becoming a master. I'm simply referring to the concept of being able to visualise interval relationships on the fretboard. It's a bit of a grey area for me. My knowledge of the fretboard was mostly formed within the first 3-4 years of playing. No matter how hard I continue to try and learn to 'see' it in new ways, I can only see the landmarks I already knew back then. If that makes any sense.

 

 

Ahhh, in that case, I would say "Use what you know"

 

Take a chord you are totally familiar with and use all the time. Just hold it and look at the fretboard, and figure out what each note is. Then write those notes down. Put the guitar down, and figure out the intervals that make up the chord. Then break the chord down into finger positions, and relate it to the intervals.

 

Basically what I said before, you know all there is to know about the fretboard, you just need to add a new vocabulary. Use what you know.

[XXX]

Originally posted by Rocinante CAGED I actually discovered before it became 'popular', and I have one of the Fretboard Logic books but I must say I didn't find it very useful. Who's this Uncle Tim, and where can I find his system?

www.uncletim.com

[Flanger]

Originally posted by jfreaksho I still picture intervals on a keyboard, and I haven't played piano on a regular basis since about the time I started guitar nearly 8 years ago.

 

 

Every so often I sit down and try to come up with a good, but simple visualization system for the guitar. The piano is a very visual instrument because it is 1 dimensional. The guitar is a 2 dimensional instrument so the complexity of the visualization increases. But I think it's still doable; we just have to approach it as a two dimensional matrix.

 

On piano, you know that if you move 3 white keys to the right that you have gone up 3 full steps to the perfect 4th - it's all easy to see. For guitar, we've got to plug in 2 numbers, an X and a Y to get the same results.

 

Maybe I'm just nuts.

[WattsUrizen]

Originally posted by Flanger Every so often I sit down and try to come up with a good, but simple visualization system for the guitar. The piano is a very visual instrument because it is 1 dimensional. The guitar is a 2 dimensional instrument so the complexity of the visualization increases. But I think it's still doable; we just have to approach it as a two dimensional matrix. On piano, you know that if you move 3 white keys to the right that you have gone up 3 full steps to the perfect 4th - it's all easy to see. For guitar, we've got to plug in 2 numbers, an X and a Y to get the same results. Maybe I'm just nuts.

 

 

When I first began playing guitar I was always trying to relate things back to the piano, I was trying to find a comfort zone.

 

These days I don't do that, I guess I can truly call myself a guitarist now, rather than a pianist who plays a bit of guitar.

[Rocinante]

So how do you guys familiarise yourself with your grey fretboard areas?

[Notorious B U G]

Originally posted by Rocinante So how do you guys familiarise yourself with your grey fretboard areas?

 

 

I take it 1 day at a time. Today I'm workin' on this progression: /Db-7b5/Gb7/Cb-7. also known as ii-v-i in the key of c-flat minor.

 

I practice the scales, chord tones, etc assosiated w/ each one all over the fretboard from every note & every finger.

 

Each day i pick one of my "gray-areas" and work on it till its "bright-pink";)

[StratKat]

The CAGED system was the first eye opener for me. For the first time on guitar i could visualize the repetition of things and their relation to each other.

But to me the CAGED system was just a thing for chords and their relationship to each other.

Pattern playing opened up the entire neck for lead work but it didnt help in teaching me the neck much either.

Yes, i was now able to chord and scale all the way up and down alot easier,but the names of the notes and finding them fast only came from actually making a concerted effort to learn them.

Each week i studied a different part of the neck using 5 frets. The firt week you start on naming all the notes on the first five frets. Then second week you work on the next five, and so on and so on.

Anyone CAN do that, its just disciplining yourself to DO IT.

After i had the names down i started looking for the interval relationships. This again led me to patterns. When i played a scale on any string i preacticed playing a harmony note on the higher string to it. This duad thing taught me to see the distance relationship and then relate it to the chords of the caged system.

[7Dimensions]

Caged system? Where can I get info on this? I am way out of the loop on this thread!!

[Help!I'maRock!]

Originally posted by 7Dimensions Caged system? Where can I get info on this? I am way out of the loop on this thread!!

 

 

i found this by typing "caged guitar" into google: http://www.avguitar.com/lesson1.htm

[djmojo]

someone posted earlier about playing a song in this mysterious "C flat minor" key.... am I to understand this is just a "b minor" key since there is no c flat??

[Notorious B U G]

Originally posted by djmojo someone posted earlier about playing a song in this mysterious "C flat minor" key.... am I to understand this is just a "b minor" key since there is no c flat??

 

 

Yes Cb minor is also B minor. For many reasons I find it mighty helpful to practice both ways of thinking. Say you see a Gb7 chord as your reading a chart. I dont want to have to convert it to F#7 in my head before I can function over the chord. I know I can function over it either way and thats reassuring. So I practice both ways.

 

Edit:wow, i managed to spell function wrong twice.

[ONEN]

Originally posted by djmojo someone posted earlier about playing a song in this mysterious "C flat minor" key.... am I to understand this is just a "b minor" key since there is no c flat??

Yeah: On sheet music, if the scale has both Bb & B, its sometimes easier to just stick a flat sign on the B and C line. So that B becomes Bb & C becomes B. Or Cb.

Regarding mastery of the fretboard: I'm no master, but somethingthats helped me a lot, is to just concentrate on one string at a time. I (literally, on my spare guitar) removed all strings but the high e. Learned where all the notes where on the string. Learned the modes on the string. Then you get to know that mode X sounds like, and where to pay it all over the neck.

Then add a second string. Repeat. Then a third. Unfortunatley, the reduced tension on the neck caused it to bottom out the strings & I dont ahave an alan key that will fit my bridge (what size are the saddle hex-keys on Schaller D6's, anyone know?). But the paln was sound. The plan, dammit!!

Theres a whole bunch of other interesting rut-breaking idea's here, too:

http://guitarsoc.homestead.com/helpfallen.html

Also (something thats really messed me up), I've taken up the flute & have noticed that my brain seems to have got accustomed to thinking of pitch adjustments in terms of the direction I move my arm. This really, really freaks me out when I'm trying to think of a note, I end up coing the wrong way, some times. Totally weird

[Notorious B U G]

Remember, the thread turned towards talking about how individuals work on thier "gray areas".

I dont neccisarily(sp) enjoy running Fb dorian scales for 2 hours. I do it because I want absolutley no holes in my playing.

The 4th note in a Bb major chord is commonly refered to as an Eb. The 7th note of E major is commonly refered to as D#. They are the same sound & note, although a "scholar" of music would never "refer" to the 4th note of Bb major as D# unless wanting to be purposely enharmonic.

analogy: The more angles you study a piece of sculpture from, the better you probably understand it.

[Flanger]

Originally posted by Singingax The only thing you're converting is the name because it's the same notes (or tones) in the chord. Now if they'd have named all 12 of the tones you wouldn't have to "convert" from one name to the other! (for the same tone or chord) I'd love to know how they do it in countries that don't use the english langauge. Do they just name 7 tones or all 12? I congratulate you on being able to practice it "both ways" for the same damn chord. I've never been able to accept that some tones borrow one of two names (and sometimes a third) instead of having it's own separate name. (being that it's a separate tone)

 

 

I think that music theory for some other cultures contain what we'd call "microtones". The 12 tone musical system isn't the only one out there!

[desmoines_bluesman]

Originally posted by Rocinante So how do you guys familiarise yourself with your grey fretboard areas?

 

 

Getting new tabs helps me, especially if it's a song I already know and/or like. Then when I get a part down, I listen to the CD and go, "So that's how he/she did it." My natural tendency at this point is to use the new part I've learned to come up with riffs of my own, which forces me to incorate the new run, chord, trick, or whatever into my overall "arsenal" of guitar knowledge.

 

The overall goal for me is to actually do LESS visualizing of the fretboard and be able to look away from the guitar, at the crowd as it might be, and let it come out based on how I'm feeling. So for me it's a process of translating from what someone else wrote and felt to how I write and feel. Sure, there's study, practice, and songwriting going on on my part, but it's about making someone else's feeling stick to your ribs and become your own.

 

When this happens, you feel like you're really playing an instrument, not merely as slab of rosewood (or maple, etc) on a solid hunk of wood with overlaying strings, trying nail where x meets y. See what I mean? It's about the SOUL, not matter what genre you're working in. Don't forget that.

[FrostGiant]

When you play long enough you should be able to look at the fretboard and see all of the notes immediately, rather than seeing the 5th string/5th fret and such. What you do with those notes is up to you. And there is no such thing as C flat/B sharp or F flat/E sharp. Just accept that and move on. Here are the notes:

E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D#
or
E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C Db D Eb

That's it. There is no Cb is a B or E# is an F, etc, etc. If you get that out of your head it will be much easier to learn. IMO.

[Notorious B U G]

Originally posted by FrostGiant When you play long enough you should be able to look at the fretboard and see all of the notes immediately, rather than seeing the 5th string/5th fret and such. What you do with those notes is up to you. And there is no such thing as C flat/B sharp or F flat/E sharp. Just accept that and move on. Here are the notes: E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# or E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C Db D Eb That's it. There is no Cb is a B or E# is an F, etc, etc. If you get that out of your head it will be much easier to learn. IMO.

 

 

So then i guess you dont believe in the key of Gb major. Its fourth note is commonly refered to as Cb. Or maybe you treat Gb major as F# major - oopps, I guess not, as IT's 7th note is commonly refered to as E#.

 

Do you call the flat 7 of a Db7 chord B? cuz it makes a {censored}load more sense to call it Cb.

 

If you choose to play in the easy keys all the time, that's cool w/ me, but don't say the {censored} dont exist just cuz you choose to avoid it.