What is this chord?

[Brain of J]

I looked through what I have on triads and chord formations and I couldn't figure out what this chord was...

 

Root, Diminished 5th, Augmented 5th, Root.

 

G,Eb,C#,G.

 

Any Idea?

[evan_02]

ah! don't mix sharps and flats

G Eb Db G

what if Eb was the root?

Eb-G(major3rd)-Db(b7)

it's an inverted E7 with the 3rd in the bass and no 5th

 

 

 

ps....i've got the brain of j

[mukuzi]

A7

Eb7

[thamiam]

 

Originally posted by Brain of J Root, Diminished 5th, Augmented 5th, Root. G,Eb,C#,G.

 

 

To put it in the order you specified in the first statement:

G Db Eb G

 

The Eb functions as a minor 6th, which is enharmonically equivalent to an augmented 5th.

 

The Db is simply a diminished 5th.

 

The only chord/scale with a diminished 5th and a flat sixth is the Locrian scale, the seventh mode of the major scale. Half-diminished chords are built from Locrian scales.

 

Hence, the chord is an odd voicing (1-b5-b6-oct.) for the G half-diminished chord.

You would probably expect some other instrument or the melody to be playing a Bb and an F natural in this context, which are the 3rd and 7th of G-half diminished.

 

 

Note to evan_02: Sharps and flats often do mix, just not in major scale harmony. If he had not specified the root, 5th, etc... the chord notes could have been written as G C# Eb G, and been the 1-#4-b13-Oct. of a Galt chord, which is the seventh (or sixth, I forget right now) mode of the G melodic minor scale.

 

[mukuzi]

 

Originally posted by thamiam To put it in the order you specified in the first statement: G Db Eb G The Eb functions as a minor 6th, which is enharmonically equivalent to an augmented 5th. The Db is simply a diminished 5th. The only chord/scale with a diminished 5th and a flat sixth is the Locrian scale, the seventh mode of the major scale. Half-diminished chords are built from Locrian scales. Hence, the chord is an odd voicing (1-b5-b6-oct.) for the G half-diminished chord. You would probably expect some other instrument or the melody to be playing a Bb and an F natural in this context, which are the 3rd and 7th of G-half diminished. Note to evan_02: Sharps and flats often do mix, just not in major scale harmony. If he had not specified the root, 5th, etc... the chord notes could have been written as G C# Eb G, and been the 1-#4-b13-Oct. of a Galt chord, which is the seventh (or sixth, I forget right now) mode of the G melodic minor scale.

 

 

this is so wrong

for so many reasons

[mukuzi]

"To put it in the order you specified in the first statement:

G Db Eb G"

 

this is abstract lableing, redundant

 

"The Eb functions as a minor 6th, which is enharmonically equivalent to an augmented 5th."

the diatonic key of G has neather a minor sixth or a #4/b5,

 

"The only chord/scale with a diminished 5th and a flat sixth is the Locrian scale, the seventh mode of the major scale. Half-diminished chords are built from Locrian scales."

 

which makes it key of Ab

also i think the wholetone scail has those intervals

 

"Hence, the chord is an odd voicing (1-b5-b6-oct.) for the G half-diminished chord.

You would probably expect some other instrument or the melody to be playing a Bb and an F natural in this context, which are the 3rd and 7th of G-half diminished."

 

dude. this is so wrong and backward facing i am at a loss to explain it to you. just do the opersit and you would be closer to the answer

there are only so many possible voicings and the one you mentioned is not one of them

[thamiam]

 

Originally posted by skatan this is abstract lableing, redundant

 

Please elaborate, I don't get what you are saying.

I simply took the phrase "Root, Diminished 5th, Augmented 5th, Root." and went from a root of G as specified in the first post.

If the root is G, the fifth is D.

If you disagree with me at this point, please say so, because we may be using different terminology. I considered that he meant the interval of a diminished 5th, followed by a note the interval of an augmented fifth above that, followed by the root. But I made a judgment call and decided he was speaking diatonically, which is somewhat more common on these boards.

If you agree with that, then the diminished 5th is Db.

And the augmented 5th is D#, which I enharmonically spelled as Eb.

Again, any disagreements, let me know.

 

 

Originally posted by skatan the diatonic key of G has neather a minor sixth or a #4/b5

 

 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the phrase "diatonic key", please explain. If you mean the major key, then you are of course right. The major key also does not have an F natural, but the G7 chord does. It was my understanding that the original post was looking for chord names for the particular notes he had put together. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

 

 

Originally posted by skatan which makes it key of Ab also i think the wholetone scail has those intervals

 

You're absolutely correct, that is the key of Ab. Was a key specified previously? I didn't think the original post mentioned what key it was in. He only mentioned that G was the root. But the root of a chord can be any note in a key..i.e. the Root of the D-7 chord (D Dorian scale) is D even though the key is C major.

 

As for the wholetone scale, yes it does contain those same notes. But the wholetone scale is not a chord/scale in the same sense that a major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, etc... scale is. Wholetone scales don't imply specific chords, but varieties of chords.

 

 

Originally posted by skatan dude. this is so wrong and backward facing i am at a loss to explain it to you. just do the opersit and you would be closer to the answer there are only so many possible voicings and the one you mentioned is not one of them

 

dude. I am not trying to argue with you here. I am genuinely interested in hearing your explanation, and would appreciate you taking the time write it for me and everybody else. If you can point out why I am wrong, I will humbly apologize to you, Brain of J, and the Gods of Theory themselves. As I've mentioned in other posts, I don't know everything about theory, and don't pretend to. If you can enlighten me, please do so.

[TubeAddict]

G Db Eb is Eb7 with no 5, among other things

[mukuzi]

sory about my tone but i find the whole pissed off theory teacher thing funny.

[WattsUrizen]

It's not important what you label it as, what's important is how it functions. It could be a neigbournote chord, a suspended passing chord, or any other sort of chord that arises from contrapuntal movement.

 

Chord grammar is one of the most pointless things in music theory.

[Brain of J]

At another board it they came up with an Eb7/G.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by Brain of J At another board it they came up with an Eb7/G.

 

 

That's fair enough, although since the third is doubled, it's a rather unusual voicing for that chord. Doesn't mean it's wrong though.

[Neilsonite]

On a practical note, I was fiddling around with voicings for this, and I quite like: 3x1x23 (where each number represents a fret, x is not played, and strings go low-high left-right, eg E is 022100).

The top three notes, like others have pointed out, form a nice straight Eb7(no5), but adding that low G really takes over and gives it a very different character. I've been fiddling with it in the context of Eb Mixolydian, where adding that G gives it a spooky Locrian vibe. Mmm... spooky... :-)

Does anyone want to join me in putting it in the context of a chord progression? Here's a quick effort resolving to Ab major (which would maybe work as a jazzy turnaround or resolution of some sort):

Bbm6: 6x566x

Abmaj7/C: 8x688x

Dbmaj6: x4336x

Eb7/G: 3x1x23

Ab: 466544

 

Who else wants a go? To me the melody in those voicings holds the chords together OK, but I'm sure you guys can do better!

Neilsonite

[bob-ingram]

Jeez, what a pissing match. It's simple, it's an augminished..... no..... dimented...no... never mind.

 

If the chord is useful, just play it and don't worry about the name. I quite often have disagreements with other musicians about the names of chords, so I just play them if they sound good, and I let the other guys worry about the name.

 

SO it's a dimented 7th in the key of Fb.

[thamiam]

 

Originally posted by skatan sory about my tone but i find the whole pissed off theory teacher thing funny.

 

 

 

Ahhhhhh....humour. Guess I fell right into that one.

 

 

Anoman - you're right of course, it could be any of a million things. In honor of skatan I think we'll officially designate it a neopolatin pisser with a double flat 19th. Which is of course the fourth mode of the mixmasterlydian scale. (Which resolves to a C Major MAJOR MAJOR Chord, also known as a C Heller 7th.)

[mukuzi]

my theory teacher was a real bitch

but in the end, in a class of 30

5 of us new chord names absolutly perfectly

altho she would reduce them to tears

those people who do not respect chord names

 

chord names are simple math

 

give each note in the cromatic scail a name and STICK TO IT , dont chop and change the names of the intervals

thats it

it is so easy

 

root, flat nine, nine, #9/b3rd, 3rd, 4, b5/#4, 5, #5/b13, 6, 7, maj7, root

 

now give chords a melodic tension limit

 

major chords NEVER HAVE A 7

 

minor chords NEVER HAVE A 3rd

 

dominant chords NEVER HAVE A maj7

 

there are only two diminished and two whole tone scails

 

once you work this stuff out you wont have any problems with chords ever agen

 

oh yea dominant chords only ever have the 3rd or the 7th in the bass (and the root)

 

forget about the five in the root as it will be an inversion or a voiced substitution

[Poparad]

If you spell it like this: G C# Eb G

 

as a root, augmented 4th, b6, root

 

then invert it with the Eb on the bottom, the other notes in no specific order, for example:

 

Eb G C# G (in the key of Gm)

 

You get an Italian Augmented 6th chord, noted as It+6. This is found in baroque and romantic harmony quite frequently in minor keys. Sometimes it can also be found in major keys as well. There are also German and French augmented sixth chords that are spelled slightly differently. Here is where you would find one in a progression:

 

i It+6 V7 i

 

The augmented sixth chord is found before a V chord 99% of the time it's used. It's a very colorful chord to experiment with.

 

The way you spell an It+6 is:

 

b6 in the bass (half step above the dominant of the key... in Gm the dominant is D, so you would use an Eb)

 

two tonic notes (in the key of Gm it would be two G's)

 

the #4 (or, a half step below the dominant, in the key of Gm, the dominant is D, so you would use a C#)

 

 

 

 

 

 

For those of you interested in how to spell Gr+6 and Fr+6 chords they're the same with this exception.

 

In a french augmented sixth chord instead of there being two tonics (two G's in the key of Gm) you would have a tonic and a supertonic (in the key of Gm, you would have a G and an A)

 

In a german augmented sixth chord isntead of there being two tonics, you would have a tonic and a mediant (in the key of Gm, you would have a G and a Bb)

 

So, to build any augmented sixth chord, start with two notes, one a half step above the dominant of the key and one a half step below, with the half step above in the bass voice. (in Gm, Eb and C#, with Eb in the bass voice).

 

For an Italian, two tonics (1),

For a French, a tonic (1) and a supertonic (2),

For a German, a tonic (1) and a mediant (3)

 

So it's as simple as 1, 2, 3.

[mukuzi]

 

in my time machine i have some chord charts you might like

 

whats the date? 1756??????????????

 

we have moved on from french and italian sixths

[SpoonyJank]

the C major MAJOR MAJOR .... was that a catch 22 reference?

[SpoonyJank]

there should be a fourth major (non-music meaning), because it was also his rank

[thamiam]

 

Originally posted by SpoonyJank the C major MAJOR MAJOR .... was that a catch 22 reference?

 

 

well, since it was also called a "Heller 7th", I'm gonna say probably.

[SpoonyJank]

sorry, I haven't haven't read it in years

[Poparad]

The augmented sixth chords were a little bit later than that date. They are still applicable to music. Most people don't use them because they aren't aware of them. They're cool chords, I don't know why you're dissing them. The I-IV-V-I progression and the infamous Pachabell progression origionated hundreds of years ago but you still find them in scores of popular music from the past several decades. Just because the chord has some age doesn't mean it's archaic.

[mukuzi]

true enough but the neopoltan sixth is just a flat nine over a doninant chord

same note different century

 

 

 

didnt mean 2b mean:)

[Poparad]

Exactly!