BB's 'questions after reading Levine's Jazz theory book' thread.

[TubeAddict]

Originally posted by babybatter Dumb question #4234 Whats a dominant chord?

dominant 7th (R 3 5 7b)

see pages 18, 32, 36

[Dave Regio]

Originally posted by Jim Soloway I think you're right.

 

 

I just checked my Joe Pass book w/ CD and he says major, minor and dominant.

 

What's also interesting is that he also says that when looking at a ii-V, he completely ignores the ii chord and focuses on the dominant idea.

[babybatter]

the 'alt' chord technically doesnt include #13, because thats just the b7.

The 'alt' therefore is a chord that has been 'altered in every possible way' according to Mr Levine.

The 11th cant be flattened, because it would become the 3rd.

Im wondering why this chord exists.

Maybe because too many goddamn noodling jazz players need chords as close to completely dissonant as possible so that their aimless lines are never really out of key?

[babybatter]

Ive elected to play:

x
8
5
8
6
x

this includes (from the 5th string, up):

d# (which is the b7)
a# (the #11)
c (the b13)
g (the #9)


OR

should I play
x
8
5
8
8
x

and put in the b9 instead of the b7?

The next chord is Fmaj7.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally posted by babybatter the 'alt' chord technically doesnt include #13, because thats just the b7. The 'alt' therefore is a chord that has been 'altered in every possible way' according to Mr Levine. The 11th cant be flattened, because it would become the 3rd. Im wondering why this chord exists. Maybe because too many goddamn noodling jazz players need chords as close to completely dissonant as possible so that their aimless lines are never really out of key?

I think the most obvious use of this chord is as a warning to the rhythm section. It says that the lead instrument is definitely going to play something harmonically very funky here, so you should probably just stick with the 1,3 and 7, otherwise you risk a collision.

[Dave Regio]

Originally posted by babybatter Maybe because too many goddamn noodling jazz players need chords as close to completely dissonant as possible so that their aimless lines are never really out of key?

??? -- Out of key? No. Outside the diatonic scale. Yes.

Some of the coolest lines involve jazz players playing outside using alterations of the dominant chord and then resolving the tension at the tonic (or another chord if a secondary dominant is involved).

We don't need the chords but having dissonance on our dominant chords makes for nice voice leading when those goddamn noodling jazz players resolve them.

For example:

E7alt (an E7#9#5) to A9 (parentheses are optional notes). I'll use this in a blues every now and then.

e-----8-----7---
b-----8-----8---
g-----7-----6---
d-----6-----7---
a----(7)----x---
e-----x----(5)--

As you switch between the chords, the common notes stay the same and the other voices move one half step (2 in one direction and 1 in another direction - opposite movement is good).

In time, you will learn that dissonance is your friend. Much to learn you still have.

[lazaraga]

Originally posted by babybatter Ive elected to play: x 8 5 8 6 x this includes (from the 5th string, up): d# (which is the b7) a# (the #11) c (the b13) g (the #9) OR should I play x 8 5 8 8 x and put in the b9 instead of the b7? The next chord is Fmaj7.

your first chord sounds more like a C-7 chord, which is ok going to Fmaj7. also you'll have a hard time playing a convincing E dom7 chord with a D# in there.

your second chord is a little better.



peace

[Dave Regio]

First off, question to Jim Soloway?

Do you have any examples I can practice where you are using dominant chords without the tritone? (I can see where a guitarist wouldn't need it if someone else was playing it)

Originally posted by babybatter and put in the b9 instead of the b7?

If you're new to this, I would recommend you building dominant chords and altered dominant chords using the 3rd and b7th...

Here are a couple of easy formulas (root on low strings...no inversions - which I'm not an expert on anyway)

Build a dominant chord with the root on the low E:

(optional notes in parentheses)

A7 Chord tone
e---(5) root
b---(5) fifth
g----6 third
d----5 flat seventh
a---(7) fifth
e---(5) root

the two "required" notes (just for example purposes) are the tritone notes. Usually when I play a plain dom7 chord, I'll either include the root on the low E or the fifth on the B.

From this form, let's build some altered dominants. Based on the chord tones listed above, you can see how I make alterations to my plain vanilla dom7 chord

The parenthesis are optional (I generally ignore those notes since in some cases the chord fingerings would be very difficult if not impossible if you tried to include them)

A7b9#5 A13b9 A7#9 A7b9
e--6--------------6------------8-------------6---
b--6--------------7------------5-------------5---
g--6--------------6------------6-------------6---
d--5--------------5------------5-------------5---
a-(7)------------(7)----------(7)-----------(7)--
e-(5)------------(5)----------(5)-----------(5)--

Let's do the same thing from a dom7 rooted on A. For the purpose of this, I'll use an E9 chord.


E9 Chord Tone
e--(7)-- fifth
b--(7)-- ninth - normally I play it
g---7--- flat seventh
d---6--- third
a--(7)-- root
e---x--- it's a fifth tone at the seventh fret but I'm not doubling.

From here, you should be able to take this basic chord form and map out the following altered dominants:

E7#9 (think Hendrix )
E7b9
E7#9#5
E7b9b5

Of course, there are countless possibilities but here's a few to get you started.

I hope my rambling helped.

[thamiam]

Originally posted by babybatter the 'alt' chord technically doesnt include #13, because thats just the b7. The 'alt' therefore is a chord that has been 'altered in every possible way' according to Mr Levine. The 11th cant be flattened, because it would become the 3rd. Im wondering why this chord exists. Maybe because too many goddamn noodling jazz players need chords as close to completely dissonant as possible so that their aimless lines are never really out of key?

You're right about the #13. I just get in the habit of throwing everything in there when writing the chord out in long form, and I went a little overboard.

As far as why the chord exists, you're looking down the wrong end of the microscope. The chord wasn't invented to accomodate dissonant soloing. The chord simple exists because the melodic minor scale exists. The chord wasn't invented, it was derived.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally posted by Dave Regio First off, question to Jim Soloway? Do you have any examples I can practice where you are using dominant chords without the tritone? (I can see where a guitarist wouldn't need it if someone else was playing it)

 

 

The key in this situation is to keep the chord small. Some people say that you just need to play double stops with the 3 and the b7 in these situations since the bass player (assuming there is one) is going to pick up the root. But if you want to play the 1-3-b7, try very small voicings.

 

Assuming you're in the key of F, the V chord is C7. That's C(1)-E(3)-G(5)-Bb(7). Since you don't want to step on the 5, just omit it and play the 1-3-7. Keep the voicing fairly tight to stay both cohesive and out of the way. A couple of examples that would work well are

 

X-X-X-5-5-6

X-3-X-3-5-X

X-X-X-9-11-8

X-X-8-9-X-8

 

All of these chords are going to sound very small when you play them by themselves and even smaller if you leave out the root, but you have to imaging them with a bass player adding the low end and the soloist adding the color.

[babybatter]

If you're new to this, I would recommend you building dominant chords and altered dominant chords using the 3rd and b7th...

Okey dokey!

Here are a couple of easy formulas (root on low strings...no inversions - which I'm not an expert on anyway)

Build a dominant chord with the root on the low E:

(optional notes in parentheses)

A7 Chord tone
e---(5) root
b---(5) fifth
g----6 third
d----5 flat seventh
a---(7) fifth
e---(5) root

the two "required" notes (just for example purposes) are the tritone notes.

Uh, what are the tritone notes?

Usually when I play a plain dom7 chord, I'll either include the root on the low E or the fifth on the B.

From this form, let's build some altered dominants. Based on the chord tones listed above, you can see how I make alterations to my plain vanilla dom7 chord

The parenthesis are optional (I generally ignore those notes since in some cases the chord fingerings would be very difficult if not impossible if you tried to include them)

A7b9#5 A13b9 A7#9 A7b9
e--6--------------6------------8-------------6---
b--6--------------7------------5-------------5---
g--6--------------6------------6-------------6---
d--5--------------5------------5-------------5---
a-(7)------------(7)----------(7)-----------(7)--
e-(5)------------(5)----------(5)-----------(5)--

Let's do the same thing from a dom7 rooted on A. For the purpose of this, I'll use an E9 chord.


E9 Chord Tone
e--(7)-- fifth
b--(7)-- ninth - normally I play it
g---7--- flat seventh
d---6--- third
a--(7)-- root
e---x--- it's a fifth tone at the seventh fret but I'm not doubling.

From here, you should be able to take this basic chord form and map out the following altered dominants:

E7#9 (think Hendrix )
E7b9
E7#9#5
E7b9b5

Of course, there are countless possibilities but here's a few to get you started.

I hope my rambling helped.

Im gathering that its still pretty much whimsy as to how Id play an alt chord. Im weaning (cause im still very theory-weak) that you reccomend building a basic major 7th chord and by trial and error substitute a couple of the alt voicings wherever I can? -- (a b9 here, a b13 there....)

[thamiam]

Originally posted by babybatter Uh, what are the tritone notes?

The 3rd and 7th of a dominant chord are a tritone apart. They are the two most important notes in determining the quality of the chord. Note, that they are a tritone apart no matter how you voice them, whether the 3rd is on top or the 7th.

[Dave Regio]

Im gathering that its still pretty much whimsy as to how Id play an alt chord. Im weaning (cause im still very theory-weak) that you reccomend building a basic major 7th chord and by trial and error substitute a couple of the alt voicings wherever I can? -- (a b9 here, a b13 there....)

 

Mostly correct...build basic dom7 (not maj7) chords off those chord shapes and start tweaking the 5 and/or the 9.

 

It takes a while to digest. I'm still digesting it. I'll probably still be digesting it in 10 years. There are endless possibilities. All one has to do is pickup a Ted Greene chord book (either Chord Chemistry or Modern Chord Progressions) to get a glimpse of the number of possibilities.