Chord question

[skatom]

Just a quick one for Poparad/other theory buffs

 

I was explaining some chord theory the other day, and bumped into something I'm not completely sure about -

 

Does the extension -13 denote a dominant chord chord with the 13th added, or 13th, 11th, and 9th as well? (optional of course).

 

Thx, tommy

[Joe Merlino]

Short answer: Yes. If you see the 13, all the extensions are implied.

Long answer: In jazz, any chord can be "flavored" with any of its extensions. If you see something like A7, you can add the 9, 11, and 13 at your discrection. When you see the notation A13, the composer or arranger is telling you that if you add the 9, 11, or 13, they should be unaltered (i.e., a straight mixolydian chord). If you see this, is probably means that there are unaltered upper extensions in the melody.

[dongenaro]

Originally posted by Joe Merlino Short answer: Yes. If you see the 13, all the extensions are implied. Long answer: In jazz, any chord can be "flavored" with any of its extensions. If you see something like A7, you can add the 9, 11, and 13 at your discrection. When you see the notation A13, the composer or arranger is telling you that if you add the 9, 11, or 13, they should be unaltered (i.e., a straight mixolydian chord). If you see this, is probably means that there are unaltered upper extensions in the melody.

I think you mean the 9, 11, OR 13 at your discretion don't you.
The flat seven has to be in the chord to give it it's quality, but any of the others can be added together or seperately. I think that is what you were saying.

[Joe Merlino]

Originally posted by dongenaro I think you mean the 9, 11, OR 13 at your discretion don't you. The flat seven has to be in the chord to give it it's quality, but any of the others can be added together or seperately. I think that is what you were saying.

Just so. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. The real essential tones are the 3rd and the 7th.

A lot of my favorite voicings are 3/7/9/13.

[dongenaro]

Originally posted by Joe Merlino Just so. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. The real essential tones are the 3rd and the 7th. A lot of my favorite voicings are 3/7/9/13.

Yeah, we're on the same page.

[Flanger]

Is that chord you are talking about written like G-13 or G13?

[skatom]

Thanks guys, I've always just added extensions at will anyway, but I was just wondering if there were any 'hard-and-fast' rules bout this sort of thing.

Oh, and my favourite dominant voicing is also 3 7 9 13, Dongenaro - that lovely four-string voicing with the 9th on top followed by 13 and 3 with the 7 on the bottom just sounds so rich .

Flanger - G13 not G(-13). I've decided that I don't like + and - when denoting chord extensions, I'll take b and # anyday. Although, - to denote "minor" fits with the triangle maj7 designation, so I like that one.

Oh, and Joe, that's a good point about melody notes in a big band context. I think that it particularly applies when considering un-altered tritone substitutions in a situation when an alteration would clash with a written part.

- tommy

[mitgas]

Perhaps my favorite chord is C7(9, 13) on all six strings with E in the bass and voicing 3-7-9-13-5-3 (yes, I know you're not supposed to double the third, shoot me). Your guitar sure as hell had better be in tune if you want to play that, though!

[Joe Merlino]

Originally posted by skatom Oh, and Joe, that's a good point about melody notes in a big band context. I think that it particularly applies when considering un-altered tritone substitutions in a situation when an alteration would clash with a written part.

 

 

It's not just a big band context. Here's an example: The G+7 (G7#5) in bar 13 of "Stella by Starlight". The #5 there is needed to accomidate the Eb that appears in the melody there. If you, as an accompanist play a straight G7 there, you're going be playing a D natural as the fifth of the chord, and that's going to clash with the melody. It doesn't matter what the instrumentation of the group is. Even if it's just you and a singer, that D is going to clank.

[skatom]

Originally posted by Joe Merlino It's not just a big band context. Here's an example: The G+7 (G7#5) in bar 13 of "Stella by Starlight". The #5 there is needed to accomidate the Eb that appears in the melody there. If you, as an accompanist play a straight G7 there, you're going be playing a D natural as the fifth of the chord, and that's going to clash with the melody. It doesn't matter what the instrumentation of the group is. Even if it's just you and a singer, that D is going to clank.

Oh yeah - that too . Someone explained a while back how melody notes influence the selection of theoretically-exchangeable chords, such as maj7 vs. 6/9, min7 vs. min9 etc. It's making alot more sense to me as I go, and I am beginning to integrate chord substitution 'on the fly' into my playing, which is a satisfying thing to do.

Cheers, tommy