Members insanemonkey Posted September 5, 2005 Members Share Posted September 5, 2005 I'm starting to get interested in learning how to improvise in this style, but I don't really know where to start. I know playing random notes in between "inside" playing doesn't work so I'm not quite sure what to do. I've been looking at some Holdsworth and Metheny runs and see what they're doing, but can't progress that to my own playing. For example, I've seen Metheny do a lick of 16th notes that is C D E D F Eb Db Bb over a Db7, and the same intervals over an Fm7 starting on Ab. Any advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gennation Posted September 6, 2005 Members Share Posted September 6, 2005 Here's a primer thing I did at another site... DISCLAIMER This is just one use of the Melodic Minor scale, and is just an introduction to the 'sound' of this particular application. This deals with the basic idea behind playing a Melodic Minor scale a half step above the root of a dominant 7 chord. In this case playing a Ab Melodic Minor scale over a G7 chord. G7 --3-- --3-- --4-- --3-- --5-- --3-- Ab Melodic Minor scale ------------------------------------------3-4---- ------------------------------------4-6---------- ---------------------------3-4-6---------------- ------------------3-5-6------------------------- -----------4-6----------------------------------- --4-6-7----------------------------------------- At first the scale doesn't sound like much and is awkward to play at first (compared to the diatonic scale patterns), but hopefully by the end of this you'll be hearing it in it's true light. This scale is very useful when the G7 is the V chord of the key of C, and G7 is moving back to the Cmaj7 chord. IOW, like this: ||: G7/// | //// | Cmaj7/// | //// :|| Repeating this over an over tells your ear that G7 is leading or resolving to C major chord. You can apply the notes of the Ab Melodic Minor scale to the second measure of G7 like this (all notes are quarter notes, one note per beat): ||-------------|-------------|--------------|-------|| ||-------------|-------------|-----------5--|-------|| ||-------------|-------------|--------4-----|-------|| repeat... ||----------3- |--6-3-------|-----5--------|-------|| ||-----2-5-----|-------6-4--|--3-----------|-------|| ||--3----------|-------------|--------------|-------|| In the example the first measure is nothing more than the notes of G7 spelled out (G B D F) then the second measure is using notes from the Ab Melodic Minor scale, resolving to the C note, and arpeggio, of the Cmaj7 chord (C E G B). This example is very basic but should clue your ear into a familiar sound. What's different for guitarist using the Melodic Minor scale is that most of the time we learn scales from the root of the scale to the next root AND the root of the scale is also the root of the chord we play it over...well, when playing the Ab Melodic Minor scale over the G7 chord, think of it as more of a group of notes that's going to push us from the G7 chord into the next chord...C. The more you burn the sound of it into your head...more so than the pattern...you can take it pretty far outside and land right on your feet getting back to the C chord. Just remember to always resolve it with a note from the Cmaj7 chord. Try resolving to each of the notes of the Cmaj7 chord and see which ones sound right...it will usually be the closest one from the note you're playing just before the C chord is played. Another way to think of this, and burn the sound into your head, is to play the progression this way: ||: G7/// | Db7/// | Cmaj7/// | //// :|| or better yet... ||: G7/// | Db9/// | Cmaj7/// | //// :|| This leads to what's called the 'b5 Substitution' theory. You can substitute a dominant 7 chord with another dominant 7 chord who root is a b5 above the original dominant 7 chord... Follow me on this... A b5 can be found 3 whole steps above the root..so for G, the b5 note is Db. Chord wise it would G7 and a Db7 chord, Db7 being substituted for G7...and if you try to sustitute a b5 substitution chord for the Db7 chord, you end up with a G7...haha, end of the line or you start repeating yourself There can only be one substitution for a dominant 7 chord using the b5 substitution theory. Hope you followed me on that...now to tie it in. If you look at these two Db chords you'll see they can be 'built' within the Ab Melodic minor scale... Db7 --4-- --6-- --4-- --6-- --4-- ----- Db9 --4-- --4-- --4-- --3-- --4-- ----- Looking back at the Ab Melodic Minor scale pattern tab at the top you'll see the notes of these two chord are right there, inside the Ab Melodic Minor scale. Now let's look at an example using the arpeggio's of each chord in the progression. You'll really hear the sound of the b5 substitution AND the Ab Melodic Minor scale...all at once. Using the original ||: G7/// | //// | Cmaj7/// | //// :|| progression you can play this to simulate/emulate the sound of the Db7 chord. ||-----------------|---------------------|----------------|-------|| ||-----------------|---------------------|----------------|-------|| ||-----------------|---------------4-----|----5----------|-------|| repeat... ||------------3----|-------3--6---------|----------------|-------|| ||-----2--5--------|--4-----------------|----------------|-------|| ||--3--------------|---------------------|----------------|-------|| In the second measure, for G7 (G B D F) we are using/superimposing a Db7 (Db F Ab B) chord over it. (Db7's B note might actually be called Cb in this case, maybe someone can clarify). Notice the resolving part...the B to the C. The sound is the Db7 moving up to C. Now try it this way, using a straight Db Major arpeggio (no b7)... ||-------------------|------------------------|--------------|--------|| ||-------------------|------------------------|--------------|--------|| ||-------------------|-------------------6----|---5---------|--------|| repeat... ||-------------3----|---------3----6---------|--------------|--------|| ||-----2---5--------|----4-------------------|--------------|--------|| ||--3---------------|-------------------------|--------------|--------|| Now you have the resolving portion resolving from Db down to C. Both ways sound good, but which one you prefer is the one more pleasing to YOUR ear. I tend to like the second one better, but end up playing the first one more...just because of were my finger land at the time Have fun with this. You can really go hogwild with this stuff at this site...Look for the ii-V-I Lines link Also check out the ii-V-I Progressions. This is Don Mocks site (famed for producing the well known video instructional tapes). You'll need to sign up for the site, but it's worth the hassle, trust me. It's free of cousre and there are a lot of great lessons there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lazaraga Posted September 6, 2005 Members Share Posted September 6, 2005 if i want a little "outside" sound to me playing, sometimes i will play the bII7 over the chord i am on, or do something symmetrical that resolves. peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members randallnm Posted September 7, 2005 Members Share Posted September 7, 2005 The great thing about playing outside....is that it really has no limitations as far as where you can take it. It is really dependant upon how much time you want to devote to get your ears to hear new sounds; exactly how far out do you want to take it? The bII idea is ok...if you move up or down a minor second from the tonic center it is referred to as "side slipping." This is a quick and dirty way to get outside of the given harmony, and is a concept that has been widely used in jazz music in past decades. Ab Melodic Minor over a G7 chord is a great sound....but it really only spells out a G altered scale, with tensions b9, #9, #11 and b13. In this day and age, this isn't going to sound that far out. Symmetrical scales, whole-tone, double whole-tone, diminished scales, nine note augmented symmetric scales.....there is a lot of stuff to explore in these sounds. Check this scale out, the formula is W, 1/2,1/2,W,1/2,1/2,W,1/2,1/2....starting on C would be spelled.... The Nine-Note Symmetric Augmented Scale, courtesy of Jerry Bergonzi's Book (although it reminds me of a page in Slonimsky's Thesaurus) C, D, Eb, E, F#, G, Ab, Bb, B, C This scale falls nicely on the guitar, but what I like to do with it is this.... 1. Get a piece of staff paper.2. Write the scale at the top of the page.3. Fill entire page with completely random melodies, voicings, anything using only the notes available in the scale. This is a great way to break away from the guitarists tendency to try and patternize everything. This is a technique that can be applied to any scale. Another widely neglected region in the outer realm is rhythm. All that I'm going to say is, with the right rhythm you can play anything you want at anytime. You can even play completely out of time. Try superimposing different tonalities on a static chord vamp. Get a tape recorder, and vamp on Em for a couple of minutes. Roll the tape back: Try and see how C Dorian sounds over it. F Lydian? How about thinking of a random chord progression, let's say Fmaj7#11, Cm7, Bbmaj7, D7. Now play on those chords over your Em static vamp. Depending on your preferences, the resolution can be joyous and lyrical....but really it doesn't even have to resolve at all. It really goes on forever. A book I've been working with for a few months that has really helped me in this department is A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody by David Liebman. It contains some pretty heavy {censored}, a good year or two worth of work. Also, check out some of the cats who play out a lot...Liebman, George Garzone, Ben Monder, Wayne Krantz (also has a great book available at his website.) Best of luck, It's a lot of fun. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members iop Posted September 12, 2005 Members Share Posted September 12, 2005 a Bm7b5 chord can be looked at in one way as a G9 chord minus the root. If you take this dominate approach (V7 chord) you can then treat the scale to this idea as a tri-tone substitute. If I wanted a sound that is more connected to the V7 chord I might use an D melodic minor, G lydian b7, a C# super locrian, C# diminish whole tone etc. These scales all contain the same notes but depending on which note you start on yield a different name. D-E-F-G-A-B-C#-D Db7 is the tri-tone of G71. Melodic Minor2. Dorian b2 mode3. Lydian Augmented mode4. Lydian Dominant mode5. Mixolydian b6 mode6. Locrian #2 mode7. Altered mode (sometimes called the Super Locrian mode) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members simeon Posted September 13, 2005 Members Share Posted September 13, 2005 i've posted this here before, but i might as well put it up again...hopefully it might give you some ideas to play around with... playing "outside" can be described as actually playing inside a different key to the one that the rhythm section is playing. this "insideness" is what gives the outside section of the solo musical sense. so to play successfully "outside", you need to be able to play successfully "inside" - which means practicing over changes and being able to analyse chord/scale relationships so that you're using scales appropriate to the chords that you're playing over. there are several ways to play outside - here are some of them... implying changes that aren't being played by the bandsidesteppingapproach tonessequencestonal subsitution implying changes that aren't being played by the band... john scofield is the master of this style - check out Uberjam which is full of one chord vamps - because the band is grooving on one chord, you can easily hear when sco is moving in and out of the tonality. for example - the band is grooving on an Am chord, so instead of just playing A Dorian, you can pretend that the band is actually playing Am and then playing C7b9 / F#7#9 / Bm7b5 / E7#9 - you play those changes, but the band just plays Am for those four bars. your lines are "outside" Am, but follow a common III VI II V jazz chord sequence - a very strong sound that the listener can follow and that makes musical sense.a simpler example would be to imply Valt / Im / Valt / Im etc, so play E7alt licks for one bar followed by Am licks for one bar sidestepping... a bit simpler this one - just move sideways for a bit, so if you're playing over Am, play Bbm licks for a bit, or Abm licks for a bit - as with all outside playing - be tasteful and always try to end on a chord tone - so finish your outside lick on an A, C, E or G note approach tones... this a a bebop technique - scott henderson and holdsworth are good at this - approach chord tones with a note that's a semi-tone above or below your target note, so in Am, approach an E from Eb or F. these sound good if you play the approach note on a weak offbeat. they sound even better if you use lots and play really fast! a slightly more advanced version of this is "double chromaticism", where you play an approach tone, like Eb (going to E), but instead of playing E as your next note, you play another chord tone and then play the E sequences... man, you could spend your life studying sequences...there are basically two types - diatonic and non-diatonicdiatonic sequences involve playing a pattern of 3 or 4 or 5 notes and then cycling that pattern through the parent scale - keeping all the notes within the scale (the intervals in the sequence will change to keep all the notes "in" - non-diatonic sequences step outside the parent scale by keeping the intervals in the sequence the same - for example...the band is grooving on Am and you play C B G Ayou now have a choice and you decide to play a diatonic sequence moving through each note of A Dorian, so you follow that up with D C A B, E D B C, F# E C D etc etc (you're not stepping outside the scale of A Dorian) in an alternate universe you decide to play a non-diatonic sequence that cycles all the first notes of the sequence through all the notes of an Am arpeggio, so you play C B G A, E Eb B C#, G F# D E, A Ab E F#the first notes of each group of four notes = C E G and A = Am arpeggioif you wanted to sound more outside then the first sequence of notes could have contained outside notes and you could have cycled it through the arpeggio of an Em chord...or the first sequence could have contained notes from an E7 alt chord and you could have cycled it non-diatonically through the notes in an E diminished scale...hopefully you're beginning to see that this is a BIG topic!one very effective way to use sequences is to move them chromatically - so shift a lick by semitones, tones or minor thirds, or even major thirds for a hip bebop sound - you're not implying another key by doing this, but the chromaticism forms the basis of your logic and the listener will pick up on it tonal substitution.... basically subsitute the scale you're using for another one - the band continues to vamp on an Am (bless their cotton socks!) and you're happily using an A dorian scale, but then you decide to use an Eb Dorian scale for 2 bars, you go back to A dorian and then you play C Dorian for two bars (you've kept the same mode, but changed the root) - you could play C# Lydian, C Altered or B Locrian (changing key and mode) - almost anything, really...it depends on what you like the sound of and how far "out" you want to go!. this technique can become too obvious if overused, so only dip into it once during a solo for maximum effect.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members iop Posted September 13, 2005 Members Share Posted September 13, 2005 When I studied with guitarist Pat Martino we covered thing like Horizonal Transpositions in fourths, Vertical Permutations etc. exampleHe would play E7#9 and then have me play C aolian over it. He looked at soloing in a strange kind of minor thing that I haven't fully grasped yet. He would play like a V7 and have me play a minor scale lick lets say an F dorian over a G7: This I see as having the #9, b9 and #5. The C aolian over E7#9 might be a kind of tritone sub. for Bb7 so that would make some sense. Rather then look at groups of cords generated from a key just focus in on a per chord basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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