what key do i improvise in?

[Nicci]

i am bumping into a problem. we got a few songs that share this problem, but i'll give one example. 'we are family' by Sister Sledge.

 

the chords are A / G / D for chorus and A / G / D / F (with i think a G in the bassline) for the rest.

 

i tried stuff but i need some help. what key is this song in?

what key would u use to improvise over this?

[joenovice]

OK..... Overall the key center looks like D major. During the second section with the F chord you could play a D min Pentatonic scale.

 

It's not purely one key though. D major has an F# in the key and D minor would produce a minor A chord and not major.

 

 

This is typical of Rock music though due to it's blues roots.

 

 

It sounds like you could use some basic theory information....

check out these links......

 

Music Theory.NET

Whole Note

Basic Music Theory

 

Hope this helps.

[Nicci]

Originally posted by joenovice It sounds like you could use some basic theory information....

 

absolutely!

 

anyway. just by trail and error i came up with D minor pent. i was a bit confused, cause there is not a minor chord in the song.

 

thanks.

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by Nicci i am bumping into a problem. we got a few songs that share this problem, but i'll give one example. 'we are family' by Sister Sledge. the chords are A / G / D for chorus and A / G / D / F (with i think a G in the bassline) for the rest. i tried stuff but i need some help. what key is this song in? what key would u use to improvise over this?

It is in the key of A Mixolydian. (Same notes as key of D major) It's tonal center is the A7 chord. Think of the F chord as a Dm7. It is a temporary key change, but it does not effect the melody. I would consider it a key change to D Dorian, (Key of C major)

[joenovice]

 

It is in the key of A Mixolydian. (Same notes as key of D major) It's tonal center is the A7 chord. Think of the F chord as a Dm7. It is a temporary key change, but it does not effect the melody. I would consider it a key change to D Dorian, (Key of C major)

 

 

Woow..... no offense but that is thinking too much. A mixolydian isn't a key it's a mode and D dorian has notes that confict with chords in the progression. D dorian has a C natural while the progression (A/G/D/F) contains C# and F# and the F natural.

 

 

It's tonal center is the A7 chord.

 

 

There isn't an A7 even mentioned.

 

 

I teach at a college and come across this stuff everyday when working with students. Sometimes the answer is hidden in history instead of theory. Here's what I mean........

 

Rock is a bastard child of Blues music (i.e. old blues not SRV). One of the key elements of old Blues is the disregard to traditional tonal centers. To say it's major or minor is incorrect. It is both. At times D major works great.... and at other times it' wouldn't.

 

D minor pentatonic would sound fine the whole time because we are contiditioned by Rock Music to accept the tensions it provides.

 

 

By the way.... I'm not saying you couldn't play a D dorian pattern when improvising. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be fool proof.

 

 

Personally I think you could play from the chromatic scale and make it work. Miles Davis did it all the time.

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by joenovice Woow..... no offense but that is thinking too much. A mixolydian isn't a key it's a mode and D dorian has notes that confict with chords in the progression. There isn't an A7 even mentioned.

While A Mixolidian and D major have all the same notes, they key to this answer is really where is the tonal center? Play the melody and listen. Do you know the melody to this song? It does not resolve to D, it resolves to A. If you really take out you guitar and play the scale, you will see that you can resolve this key all the way to A7, Hence, the answer, A Mixolidian. You do not believe that a tonal center can be a mode? Try this, Snatch the pebble from my hand.

Originally posted by joenovice D dorian has a C natural while the progression (A/G/D/F) contains C# and F# and the F natural.

As I indicated, The D Dorian scale is only during the F Chord, not the whole progression. It is a temporary key change.

 

Originally posted by joenovice I teach at a college and come across this stuff everyday when working with students. Sometimes the answer is hidden in history instead of theory. Here's what I mean........ Rock is a bastard child of Blues music (i.e. old blues not SRV). One of the key elements of old Blues is the disregard to traditional tonal centers. To say it's major or minor is incorrect. It is both. At times D major works great.... and at other times it' wouldn't. D minor pentatonic would sound fine the whole time because we are contiditioned by Rock Music to accept the tensions it provides.

D minor pentatonic is not a complete answer. It only deliniates five of the seven possible diatonic notes. It is more correct to say D Dorian, then if you choose to only use five of those notes, well that's ok.

 

 

Originally posted by joenovice Personally I think you could play from the chromatic scale and make it work. Miles Davis did it all the time.

Chromatic scale is not a real answer to the questions, is it. Sure you can always play a chromatic scale, you could also use a whammy bar and do a dive bomb. But that does not tell us what key it is in.

[joenovice]

Ok Sensei.....

 

How would "Silent Night" fit your description? Is this song also in a mode?

 

The melody focuses on A and C. Is this song written in C mixolydian?

 

 

While A Mixolidian and D major have all the same notes, they key to this answer is really where is the tonal center? Play the melody and listen. Do you know the melody to this song? It does not resolve to D, it resolves to A. If you really take out you guitar and play the scale, you will see that you can resolve this key all the way to A7, Hence, the answer, A Mixolidian

 

 

Tonal centers and resolutions do not change "the Key." It just changes the discussion. How can one resolve to A7? All dominate 7th chords need resolution. (according to hundreds of years of music theory) If you end on A7 then by traditional theory terms this doesn't resolve. It is unresolute.

 

By the way the melody of the song ends on the D major chord. "All my little sisters and ME." The word me is the note A. This is played over the D major chord. Hence the 5th of the chord and NOT A mixolydian.

 

A lot of your comments don't apply to the original post.

 

 

 

D minor pentatonic is not a complete answer. It only deliniates five of the seven possible diatonic notes. It is more correct to say D Dorian, then if you choose to only use five of those notes, well that's ok.

 

 

The guy is asking what to use for improvisation. If you tell him D dorian works "great" over the F chord, you must also tell him that the B natural would sound like monkey's butt. Hanging out on the #11 sounds great in Jazz but would get you fired from some Rock gigs.

 

 

You are over complicating things.

 

 

Chromatic scale is not a real answer to the questions, is it. Sure you can always play a chromatic scale, you could also use a whammy bar and do a dive bomb. But that does not tell us what key it is in.

 

 

No I was just tring to make you feel better about your super complicated explaination. I agree... a skilled guitarist could use D dorian for ONE freaking chord. They could also use the chromatic scale or whammy dive for half a beat if they wanted to be a real bad ass.

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by joenovice Ok Sensei..... How would "Silent Night" fit your description? Is this song also in a mode? The melody focuses on A and C. Is this song written in C mixolydian?

Silent night is clearly in a Major key.

 

 

Originally posted by joenovice Tonal centers and resolutions do not change "the Key." It just changes the discussion. How can one resolve to A7? All dominate 7th chords need resolution. (according to hundreds of years of music theory) If you end on A7 then by traditional theory terms this doesn't resolve. It is unresolute. There is a difference between parent key and tonal center. It has to do with the way that you play your melodies or leads. C major has all the same notes as A minor,(the Aeolian mode of C major) how ever, you would not tell someone to use C major if the tonal center was Am. You would play Am differently from C major. Like wise, even though A mixolydian has all the same notes as it's parent key, D major, it is played differently. This is not determinied by the last note of a phrase but by what the melodies resolution tendensies are.   If you add the melody line to the chords of We are family, you get the follwing chords.] |A A7 A7 A7|G9 G//|D11///|F///|   The melody has only two notes, just A and G Originally posted by joenovice By the way the melody of the song ends on the D major chord. "All my little sisters and ME." The word me is the note A. This is played over the D major chord. Hence the 5th of the chord and NOT A mixolydian. You are over complicating things. It's the other way around. To say that there are only two scales, major and minor is over simplifying things. You really would not need music theory if that is all there was. There is a whole world of tonal centers and a good musician would want to know the difference between A mixolidian and D major. It's not just about which notes, but how you use them.

[joenovice]

This is crazy and missinformative. I would like to refer you to the following publications;

 

 

Tonal Harmony by Kostka and Payne

Sources recommended by the Harvard Dictionary of Music

 

 

 

 

 

Silent night is clearly in a Major key.

 

 

This contradicts your explaination for use of A mixolydian in your second post.

 

 

Play the melody and listen. Do you know the melody to this song? It does not resolve to D, it resolves to A. If you really take out you guitar and play the scale, you will see that you can resolve this key all the way to A7, Hence, the answer, A Mixolidian. You do not believe that a tonal center can be a mode? Try this, Snatch the pebble from my hand.

 

 

I have two degrees in music. Guitar Performance and MM Theory. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

A mixolydian is not a KEY. It is a mode and at best a tonal center.

 

WOULD SOMEONE ELSE PLEASE COMMENT. We need a third party resolution.

[Nicci]

i would gladly be of assistence, but . . . well. i can't.

 

anyway. using D Major works. or a mode of D major.

 

let's call it BMinor!

 

[joenovice]

[LosBoleros]

Of course the scale of D major works, so does B minor, and so does any mode of B minor or D major, But where is the tonal center?

 

Here is how I hear this song. I just do not hear D as the tonal center. Have a listen, but bear in mind that I have not played a guitar in about three years. My instrument these days, and the one that pays the bills around here, is the Tres Cubano.

 

Now after listening to this, is there anybody who thinks this is in the key of D?

 

BTW I used the B natural note twice, do you still think it sounds like a monkeys butt?

[LosBoleros]

 

Originally posted by joenovice I have two degrees in music. Guitar Performance and MM Theory. I try to post in these forums to rid the Internet of half-ass truths.

I have a total of over 2000 posts in these forums. Even if you had as many as I do, it would not give you the right to be so rude. You are definately not the only music teacher here. I would guese that 70 percent of us are.

 

Do you think you could participate in a more mature maner?

[Neilsonite]

It's getting a bit heated in here...

 

OK, my take is this: if you focus on the chord tones (i.e. the notes contained in each chord), then that's a really good place to start.

 

BUT, if you want to think of an overall tonal centre (yes, colloquially but not technically a 'key'), then a good one to my ear is Am Pentatonic, but with a major 3 as well as a b3 over the A chord (blues-style). My reasoning is that all the other chords fit in Am (either Aeolian or Dorian), and it's just the root that has been majorised, ala hundreds of other blues/rock/pop songs.

 

About dom7 chords not being resolved... Well, we only have decades not centuries of blues and funk, but I would argue that they show pretty clearly that a dom7 chord can be a resolved tonal centre. A lot of funk doesn't even move from it!

 

James

[Nicci]

 

Originally posted by Neilsonite It's getting a bit heated in here...

 

 

yeah, no need for that.

 

anyway.

 

i got a midi-file of the song and i'm trying all kinds of things on this one. D-major seems to work (in the sense that it is in tune), but doesn't sound very good. if u know what i mean.

i was trying Am pent. at first (but thought: "that can't be right!) and had better results (in the sense that it sounds better). The Am pent has a 'c' in it, the D major does not and this 'c' is a very nice tone to use.

[joenovice]

Do you think you could participate in a more mature maner?

 

Right you are..... I must appologize for my comments. They were delivered in an unhelpfull and rude manner.

 

It's not my typical approach.... I've been sick for days with sinus infection and my medications/discomforts must have gotten the better of my thoughts and leaked into the post.

 

Anyway..... Sorry for the heated words.

[simeon]

if i had to solo over this, i would use A mixolydian over A G and D and then A aeolian over the F.

 

the F chord is clearly an example of "modal interchange".

 

the root of this sequence is the A chord, but technically the key for the first 3 chords is D major - we don't hear it as rooted on the D of course, but classical music theory dictates that a dominant chord cannot be the root chord of a sequence and the key is D major. this, however is rock music, which doesn't always go by classical "rules".

 

so in essence, you're both right and you're both wrong - depends which side of the fence you're standing on!

 

for practical purposes - i.e. how does one solo over these chords - use A mixolydian over the first three and A aeolian over the F.

 

a request please - will those guys who have had a classical or formal training, please try and remember that we're dealing with rock music here - not classical - and the rules you were taught (while correct in a formal sense) may not apply to certain situations in rock music - try explaining a blues if the root chord can't be a dominant!

 

another request - these forums can be a valuable source of information for many people, but i think it's extremely important to guage the "level" of the questioner and figure out exactly what is it they're asking - and to give an answer that is concise and appropriate - too much information can be confusing and do more harm than good.

if you can provide some information which helps the questioner to figure out the answer on their own...even better!

 

i get really tired of tring to be helpful and provide useful information to people, only to get into long nit-picking discussions with people over what is and isn't "correct" theory or "correct" terminology - lets keep our advice concise, to the point and practical.

 

sim

[LosBoleros]

 

Originally posted by simeon if i had to solo over this, i would use A mixolydian over A G and D and then A aeolian over the F. the F chord is clearly an example of "modal interchange". the root of this sequence is the A chord, but technically the key for the first 3 chords is D major - we don't hear it as rooted on the D of course, but classical music theory dictates that a dominant chord cannot be the root chord of a sequence and the key is D major. this, however is rock music, which doesn't always go by classical "rules". so in essence, you're both right and you're both wrong - depends which side of the fence you're standing on! for practical purposes - i.e. how does one solo over these chords - use A mixolydian over the first three and A aeolian over the F. a request please - will those guys who have had a classical or formal training, please try and remember that we're dealing with rock music here - not classical - and the rules you were taught (while correct in a formal sense) may not apply to certain situations in rock music - try explaining a blues if the root chord can't be a dominant! another request - these forums can be a valuable source of information for many people, but i think it's extremely important to guage the "level" of the questioner and figure out exactly what is it they're asking - and to give an answer that is concise and appropriate - too much information can be confusing and do more harm than good. if you can provide some information which helps the questioner to figure out the answer on their own...even better! i get really tired of tring to be helpful and provide useful information to people, only to get into long nit-picking discussions with people over what is and isn't "correct" theory or "correct" terminology - lets keep our advice concise, to the point and practical. sim

excelent response. all of it.

 

hey joe, I just got over a sinus infection, it was misery for about a week. don't sweat it.