Improvisation approaches?

[alez]

Making a start in jazz improvisation and would very much appreciate your input.

 

My present practice routines include both arpeggio / scale exercises and playing over changes (standards), which would be a more practical approach.

 

My skills at the latter is: presently, I can play chord tones in quarter notes, and keep up with changes for a few chords, that'd be for tunes such as Autumn Leaves (one chord per bar in a sequence of chords to be followed one by one), but slowed down a bit. I've learned from you guys that this is a good first exercise for me to get right, specifically I learned that from the 3rd post (2nd reply) here:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1021478

 

Apart from getting the former right at the right speed without getting lost, my next goal is to add passing tones, creating a melody in eighths.

 

I'm trying to figure out useful arpeggio / scale routine exercises that would help this goal. My idea is to continue combining those routines with my "playing over changes" exercises until things start to come together. Then I can concentrate on more musical stuff such as copying phrases from records.

 

The very few jazz tunes I've been trying out seem to fit improvising approaches which are rather different from one another. So what normally happens is that I have a look at a song, try to figure out how to work on it, fail, then open a thread to ask for help. I've done this many times and I've learned a lot from you:

Chain of Fools: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=945782

Cantaloupe Island: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=907222

Autumn Leaves: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1024558

Killing Me Softly With His Song: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1126616

 

I should mention how useful these discussions have proven, for instance my solos for "Cantaloupe Island" which we perform are now quite successful and nice to listen to, same for "Chain of Fools", and all I've achieved through purposeful practicing, conceived from the concepts learnt here.

 

I feel that my exercise of "nailing" the chord tones throughout the changes is good for all of them though. Now, the passing tones I'd like to practice seem to be different depending on the tune. For some tunes, I think you mostly would like to keep it diatonic (apart from "chromatic enclosures" and such devices that you need to successfully reach chord tones). For other tunes (very slow changes, or chords not in a given key), you want to choose a scale for each chord. For instance, over G7 I would probably be playing:

 

-G lydian dominant (and pentatonics, but I leave those since they don't fit well the "8-note in a bar, interleaving chord and non-chord tones" approach) for a non functional chord, as found in soul, say "Chain of Fools" in my threads above.

 

-Same if the chord sequence is not in a particular key, i.e. the chords don't fit a particular scale, second chord of "Cantaloupe" in my threads above, or probably the bit when the things start to get hairy (chords not belonging to a given scale) in "Killing Me Softly" in my threads above?? Or for modal music as discussed here:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=934885

 

-G mixolydian for a V in the key of Cmaj, say for instance the first dominant in "Autumn Leaves", which can be seen as a part of a major ii-V-I. (Note: technically, I'd be using 8-note scales, so this is actually mixolydian bebop, and so on.) It seems like tipically, I wouldn't be playing lydian dominant, see 6th post here (or 5th reply):

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=915988

Plus if the changes are quick, raising the tonic of the key up (#4 of V is #1 of I) may be an awkward thing to do?

 

-Fifth mode of C melodic minor for a V7 in the key of Cmin?? Say V7 of the (minor) key in "Autumn Leaves". Again, if the changes are quick, I'm not sure that G mixolydian or even G lydian dominant would work since they raise the 3rd of the key to a major 3rd?? (major 6th of V is natural 3rd of I).

 

Note: in these last two, I'm going diatonic to avoid this effect: "The problem with trying to use other modes in a tonal chord progression is that it sounds like you're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole" -Poparad. Discussion here:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1141446

 

-Fifth mode of C dorian add natural 7th for "Summertime" first bars!! (my latest nightmare) As those first bars are a I-V minor vamp, but "quick" (2 chords per bar that is) which means I could NEVER keep changing from I to V then back to I. Therefore take the modal approach and use C dorian add natural 7th throughout.

 

My problem, which is why I'm opening this thread, is that presently I'm not technically skilled enough to automatically identify the sound I want and play the right notes, copy phrases and so on. I feel that I need to spend some more hours playing scale based routines against chords and sequences to identify sounds. But I need to figure out purposeful scales to fit all those different situations.

 

Also it's very important for me to identify any conceptual mistakes on the different scenarios described above. Because if I've nearnt all wrong, I don't want to start practicing strange scales that I'll never use simply because they are pointless.

 

The situations I'm most doubtful about are the last two, where I'd be trying the simplest way to keep it diatonic while outlining the G7 chord (obviously this is more difficult in minor tunes such as Autumn Leaves, where all the chords belong the the natural minor scale except for the V7).

 

Also, while on the topic, how should I approach the bars of "Summertime" where there are say 3 chords per bar?? Would it be my long term goal (in years time?) to land on chord tones for all those chords or is that as mad as it looks like and I'm always safe to ignore the second two chords of each bar?? Those 2 chords look meaningful to me, as if they should be "supported"?? (Well, at least one solution to this would be play as few notes as you are comfortable with, you don't need to play anything at all over each and every chord do you?)

 

Sorry for this pile of crap, guys!!!

 

Any comments?? Such as "geeee, boring!!", or "give up music, boy"??

[bardsley]

I think that part of the problem we fall into (I'm speaking for myself, and, I imagine, the majority of jazz guys here, who play gigs, but aren't that fantastic, perhaps) is not being comfortable enough with our own voice. You talk about different tunes needing to be more diatonic sounding, etc. and of course, it's great that you think of each tune as a tune, rather than just arbitrary chord changes. However, if you listen to great players like Miles, Coltrane, right through to Keith Jarrett and, say, Brad Mehldau, you'll notice that this isn't something they tend to do as much.

I've been listening to a lot of Brad Mehldau recently, and he does a lot of Beatles and Radiohead tunes, as well as Jazz standards.

You notice a couple of things.

1: His style is instantly recognizeable once you've hearrd him a few times. He plays in a particular way, rhythmically, melodically and harmonically that are his own style. That means that, to an extent, he doesn't alter his playing style dramatically between playing a Radiohead tune and a Jazz standard.

2. He's very harmonically free, in that he's reached a point at which he is capable of using chords that most of us wouldn't dream of using. I was listening to a version he's recorded of "Martha my Dear" (Beatles) in which he uses very dense chord clusters, with extreme dissonances.

3. He has a clear love of simple, beautiful melody. I often hear him repeating the same melodic fragments (for instance, the intervals that fit over the lyrics "black bird, fly" in the Beatles White Album) throughout a recording, as if he's exploring the possibilities inherent in such a simple phrase.

 

In other words, here is how I would put him against someone like me, in the way we treat a tune.

He and I would both like stating the melody. I would tend to use the melody as a crutch, pointing out where I was, etc. He uses it as something to explore, and build new harmonic content off.

I tend to stick to the written harmony, and the feel of well known recordings. He tends to use the original changes as a guide to base his particular harmonic style on.

If I play three tunes in a row, they sound stylistically different, but boringly familiar.

If he plays three tunes in a row, they sound stylistically cohesive, but interestingly dense and complex.

 

Just a few things to ponder. I don't know whether any of it helps.

[alez]

 

I don't know whether any of it helps.

 

 

Bardsley,

 

Firstly, thank you very much for reading all that.

 

Then, thank you very much for your comments, which are very helpful indeed, and encouraging too.

 

I was thinking how important is to feel you are playing the right thing at all levels, actually it is paramount for us trumpeters, for ANY hesitation affects the "sound flow" hugely.

 

Coming back to your post, presently I approach each tune the way that makes me fail less and that's pretty much it, so I'm much more a novice student than a musician. This makes me sound, just as you said, like different novice students, one for each tune.

 

I very much hope to develop any kind of personal style as I keep playing for years, and I'm happy to say that I'm sterting to feel stuff coming out of my fingers, without any thinking, which is very rewarding if you think you got to that point by spending so many hours playing scales.

 

Cheers,

 

Alex

[simeon]

interesting post - it's good that you can verbalise clearly the processes that you're undergoing...

 

i'd say the simplest way to "keep it diatonic" on a V7 chord is to simply play the mixolydian where the resolution is to a C major chord and to play harmonic minor when it resolves to a Cm chord - but always use the melody as a guide

 

where you've got 3 chords per bar, i guess you can try lumping them together - they're probably going to be II V I's or II V's so try to build up a repertoire of licks that you can use to get you round all the variations of this common sequence

 

i would heartily encourage you to transcribe solos by as many different musicains as you can and learn to play these solos (even if it's a half speed to begin with) as this will help you to internalise their "feel" and approach.

 

good luck!

 

sim

[halfwhole]

just use chord tones and try to link them nicely. musical phrasing...mmm

 

have you done any transcription? now might be the time to start. all the answers are on the records. there was a time when people had to learn jazz pretty much by ear. there was no internet and various methods to tell you to play a mixolydian #4 on the D7 chord etc etc.

 

it sounds like you're at the point where you need to just start playing and let your ears sort things out for you...get a recording of autumn leaves and jam with it for a half hour everyday. see how you sound after a week of this

[Paragraph51]

 

Originally posted by bardsley I think that part of the problem we fall into (I'm speaking for myself, and, I imagine, the majority of jazz guys here, who play gigs, but aren't that fantastic, perhaps) is not being comfortable enough with our own voice. You talk about different tunes needing to be more diatonic sounding, etc. and of course, it's great that you think of each tune as a tune, rather than just arbitrary chord changes. However, if you listen to great players like Miles, Coltrane, right through to Keith Jarrett and, say, Brad Mehldau, you'll notice that this isn't something they tend to do as much. I've been listening to a lot of Brad Mehldau recently, and he does a lot of Beatles and Radiohead tunes, as well as Jazz standards. You notice a couple of things. 1: His style is instantly recognizeable once you've hearrd him a few times. He plays in a particular way, rhythmically, melodically and harmonically that are his own style. That means that, to an extent, he doesn't alter his playing style dramatically between playing a Radiohead tune and a Jazz standard. 2. He's very harmonically free, in that he's reached a point at which he is capable of using chords that most of us wouldn't dream of using. I was listening to a version he's recorded of "Martha my Dear" (Beatles) in which he uses very dense chord clusters, with extreme dissonances. 3. He has a clear love of simple, beautiful melody. I often hear him repeating the same melodic fragments (for instance, the intervals that fit over the lyrics "black bird, fly" in the Beatles White Album) throughout a recording, as if he's exploring the possibilities inherent in such a simple phrase. In other words, here is how I would put him against someone like me, in the way we treat a tune. He and I would both like stating the melody. I would tend to use the melody as a crutch, pointing out where I was, etc. He uses it as something to explore, and build new harmonic content off. I tend to stick to the written harmony, and the feel of well known recordings. He tends to use the original changes as a guide to base his particular harmonic style on. If I play three tunes in a row, they sound stylistically different, but boringly familiar. If he plays three tunes in a row, they sound stylistically cohesive, but interestingly dense and complex. Just a few things to ponder. I don't know whether any of it helps.

 

 

I would agree with this as it parallels my own thoughts about these things, and I might add that the music dictates the limits of what you can play to it, and when a player is actually improvising he doesn't draw from ideas that were used in other pieces of music, and throw them in in places they appear to fit, which is similar to using the answers to questions on a previous test to answer different questions asked on a new exam about a different subject. True, or more correctly, total improvising is situational and the situation determines what is played.....

 

Most people only only improvise the manner in which they arrange preconceived licks within the framework of the musical structure, the licks themselves are not improvised. However music is self propagating and if you play a few notes that set the theme or designate the melody, the rest of the notes will follow quite naturally to resolve whatever tension you built up with the idea you started with, (the head).

[alez]

Chaps,

 

Thank you for your comments

 

it's good that you can verbalise clearly the processes that you're undergoing

 

I've read too much theory for what I can actually do when I play, but this is just because I don't find a lot to do at work. As I can't blow my horn in the office, I keep reading stuff, then any tiny progress I make when playing, I can explain the theory behind. It's like "aaah, so when I read this, what actually meant is what I just heard!" all the time.

 

play harmonic minor when it resolves to a Cm chord

 

I tend to consider the melodic minor better just because I'm not too comfortable with the interval between b6 and 7, melodically speaking. That said, I've not tried to use the scale in it's musical context (while playing over a chord sequence) but only as an exercise.

 

where you've got 3 chords per bar, i guess you can try lumping them together - they're probably going to be II V I's or II V's so try to build up a repertoire of licks that you can use to get you round all the variations of this common sequence

 

Yes good advice. I've read about this approach before (the repertoire of licks), looks like the way to go. The other thing is, in the particular example I was using, the chords don't fit a ii-V.. although I may have found a way through, I've opened a thread about it here (see my comments for bar 8):

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1146484

 

have you done any transcription? now might be the time to start. all the answers are on the records

 

Nice one. Haven't done any yet, but I'll try to free up a bit of time for that, just need to find how to do it without using the time I use for my scale / arpeggio routines! Thank you!

 

get a recording of autumn leaves and jam with it for a half hour everyday. see how you sound after a week of this

 

Hey, I can't believe it, this is JUST what I'm doing presently!! I've been discussing my progress on this very exercise in a thread mentioned on my first post here (see "Autumn Leaves" above). And yeah, I sound a lot less crap lately

 

it sounds like you're at the point where you need to just start playing and let your ears sort things out for you

 

Feels so, again I explained this feeling in that thread! Thanks for the encouraging comments, they describe the exact same thing that my intuition says. Thread here:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1145566

 

total improvising is situational

 

Just 3 words and you said it all!

 

if you play a few notes that set the theme or designate the melody, the rest of the notes will follow quite naturally to resolve whatever tension you built up with the idea you started with

 

I experimented this for the first time the other day myself and it felt sooo great.

 

Cheers guys!