Fingering Systems

[CBLjazz]

 

I think the main issue with Fretboard Logic is that many people buy it as a "music theory book" when it has NOTHING to do Music Theory. Fretboard Theory, yes, but not music theory in the slightest. But it does a great job at the fretboard theory, don't get me wrong.

 

 

He is 200% correct. If people are buying this book as a theory text they are sadly misled. There isn't even any notation in it. It's clearly ONLY a fretboard theory book.

 

If you're looking for anything else, look elsewhere.

[Kindras]

Should i purchase Fretboard Logic I & II and get 3 later, or will i benefit from grabbing III as well?

[CBLjazz]

 

Should i purchase Fretboard Logic I & II and get 3 later, or will i benefit from grabbing III as well?

 

 

I only have 1 & 2 so I can't speak about 3.

1 & 2 come together and are written very well. If you can afford I'd definitely pick it up.

I can't imagine 3 being poorly written because as I said 1 & 2 are well written and understandably organized. 1 & 2 blend together seemlessly.

 

Can someone that has 3 speak about it's quality?

[Jed]

 

CBLjazz, I just noticed what you said about scale gear, chord gear and arp gear. I totally relate to that. Having learned the 3 NPS scales and arpeggios as separate patterns, the way the CAGED scales and arpeggios and chords physically relate on the fingerboard really helped me to mix them up creatively. Visualising chords scales and arpeggios that way also seems to really help the theoretical understanding of the relationships.

 

 

Guys, I'm confused. Did you training start with 3nps and skip over the 7 positional forms? I came to guitar after having studied harmony so I learned about the guitar in terms of the similarities between voicings, arps and scale patterns.

 

I haven't looked at the 3nps forms but the Positional forms map perfectly to the CAGED keyed Pentatonic forms. I guess my approach must be even further out there than I thought. For me 4-note traid voicings on the inside strings bring me right to the appropriate Pentatonic and one of three Positional forms dependent on the chord function (I, IV or V). I've attached a pdf that shows how they map in the system I was taught.

[gennation]

In the early days it was open chords then barre chords (which took me a long time).

 

Then it was the Minor Pent and Blues diagrams here, and of course later the Major Pent:

 

 

 

 

After that it was the 7 Positions of the Major scale ....

 

 

Once I had the Blues scale I learned it up and down the fretboard trying to find as many different ways I could tie the patterns together. This became my "standard procedure" with EVERYTHING I learn. I learn it in as many different ways as I can, EVEN the awkward ways.

[CBLjazz]

 

Guys, I'm confused. Did you training start with 3nps and skip over the 7 positional forms? I came to guitar after having studied harmony so I learned about the guitar in terms of the similarities between voicings, arps and scale patterns. I haven't looked at the 3nps forms but the Positional forms map perfectly to the CAGED keyed Pentatonic forms. I guess my approach must be even further out there than I thought. For me 4-note traid voicings on the inside strings bring me right to the appropriate Pentatonic and one of three Positional forms dependent on the chord function (I, IV or V). I've attached a pdf that shows how they map in the system I was taught.

 

 

In school for me they only officially talked about 3nps.

The positional stuff was just an exercise.

The would say... Can you play any scale or arp in any position and any key, starting on any finger. And like a puppy doing tricks I did it.

 

Not very musical but my grade depended on it.

[Dubb]

Should i purchase Fretboard Logic I & II and get 3 later, or will i benefit from grabbing III as well?

Don't bother getting the third book. It's not nearly as useful as the other two. My copy's been collecting dust for a few years now, and I don't expect it to stop any time soon.

[CBLjazz]

 

Don't bother getting the third book. It's not nearly as useful as the other two. My copy's been collecting dust for a few years now, and I don't expect it to stop any time soon.

 

 

Thanks. What does the 3rd book cover?

[Dubb]

Thanks. What does the 3rd book cover?

A lot of things, but none of them very well. Here's a copy of the Contents that I scanned:

With each of these subjects, the author gives enough information for the reader to know that they exist and to have a basic understanding of what they are, but not enough to actually do anything with them. I think the only people who could benefit from this book are absolute beginners to guitar who know nothing except what they've read in his first 2 books. And even then, certain topics, such as "Creativity," are pretty worthless.

 

I really wanted to like this book, too. I guess there's a reason why it doesn't come bundled with the other two books.

[CBLjazz]

That's really helpful info. Sounds like it sucks.

[fabian s]

Guys, I'm confused. Did you training start with 3nps and skip over the 7 positional forms? I came to guitar after having studied harmony so I learned about the guitar in terms of the similarities between voicings, arps and scale patterns. I haven't looked at the 3nps forms but the Positional forms map perfectly to the CAGED keyed Pentatonic forms. I guess my approach must be even further out there than I thought. For me 4-note traid voicings on the inside strings bring me right to the appropriate Pentatonic and one of three Positional forms dependent on the chord function (I, IV or V). I've attached a pdf that shows how they map in the system I was taught.

 

The 3nps scales are modifications of the positional forms. They make picking and scale sequences very logical but move out of position, so the link with the chord and arpeggio is broken.

 

I use 3nps all the time but wouldn't teach it first.

 

[CBLjazz]

Sweet!!!

 

I'm glad you said what you said about them moving out of position and therefore "breaking" the chord/ arp/ scale link. I was trying to figure out what made them logical but not necessarily as cohesive a system as the CAGED.

 

Cool beans.

[VengefulTikiGod]

I'm glad you realize what I did. Coming to CAGED form 3nps makes you quickly aware of how disjunct chords, scales and arps feel in the 3nps system. I thought maybe it was just me- but apparently not.

 

I have always found 3nps to be next to useless in terms of relating notes to chords. It was one of the first scale patterns I learned--I promptly neglected practicing it, it was frustrating! I mean, I had the chord I wanted right under my fingers, but that damn pattern was nowhere near it. God help me if I wanted to play chord/melody.

 

I eventually just taught myself chord melody (well, with the help of a teacher), which made it very easy to visualize and... audialize?... notes in relation to chords. Which, you know, is KINDA IMPORTANT. So a method like CAGED, that puts as many notes as close to the chords and arpeggios as possible, strikes me as a valuable learning tool for getting students to relate notes and chords to each other in an immediately tangible way--and this is so CRUCIAL to good musicianship and music theory that 3nps should be considered to be no less than a DANGEROUS DIVERSION from the goal of getting students to relate notes to chords! Yes, I said it. They can come back to that later for more advanced stuff if they want to, but for intermediate students, developing an ear and a sense for notes in relation to chords must be a priority. What use is 3nps if you don't know what you're doing with it???

 

So that's what I think you should teach your students.

[CBLjazz]

I have always found 3nps to be next to useless in terms of relating notes to chords. It was one of the first scale patterns I learned--I promptly neglected practicing it, it was frustrating! I mean, I had the chord I wanted right under my fingers, but that damn pattern was nowhere near it. God help me if I wanted to play chord/melody. I eventually just taught myself chord melody (well, with the help of a teacher), which made it very easy to visualize and... audialize?... notes in relation to chords. Which, you know, is KINDA IMPORTANT. So a method like CAGED, that puts as many notes as close to the chords and arpeggios as possible, strikes me as a valuable learning tool for getting students to relate notes and chords to each other in an immediately tangible way--and this is so CRUCIAL to good musicianship and music theory that 3nps should be considered to be no less than a DANGEROUS DIVERSION from the goal of getting students to relate notes to chords! Yes, I said it. They can come back to that later for more advanced stuff if they want to, but for intermediate students, developing an ear and a sense for notes in relation to chords must be a priority. What use is 3nps if you don't know what you're doing with it??? So that's what I think you should teach your students.

 

It's so funny to read that post because in retrospect I realize there was performer me and practicer me

 

I was doing CAGED during performances without even realizing it because what i was practicing (3nps and all the stuff that goes with it) was as you put it... useless.

 

Very funny indeed. So I mastered Chord Melody and did all of the CAGED stuff but never called it CAGED. Until now.

 

I wasted a lot of time.

[wrathfuldeity]

Thanks Vengeful, CBL and Fabian...very interesting.

First learned segovia, then box patterns and have a good handle on 3nps. And have been interested in caged but have yet to figure it out so as to become more musical instead of just being stuck mindlessly ripping scales all over the board. Would like to be able to develope a sense of relationship to chords and melody. Thus any guidance would be much appreciated. Thanks again.

[CBLjazz]

 

Thanks Vengeful, CBL and Fabian...very interesting. First learned segovia, then box patterns and have a good handle on 3nps. And have been interested in caged but have yet to figure it out so as to become more musical instead of just being stuck mindlessly ripping scales all over the board. Would like to be able to develope a sense of relationship to chords and melody. Thus any guidance would be much appreciated. Thanks again.

 

 

This thread covers it all and has all of the major scale fingerings for CAGED in it too.

 

Read#2, 15, 16 & 30

[VengefulTikiGod]

 

Thanks Vengeful, CBL and Fabian...very interesting. First learned segovia, then box patterns and have a good handle on 3nps. And have been interested in caged but have yet to figure it out so as to become more musical instead of just being stuck mindlessly ripping scales all over the board. Would like to be able to develope a sense of relationship to chords and melody. Thus any guidance would be much appreciated. Thanks again.

 

 

Brush up on your chord inversions and try to make chord/melody arrangements of as many songs as you can--that's a start. I don't know, that's how I approached it, which admittedly wasn't very systematic (I didn't have a teacher during this time anyway). But from what I'm hearing here, CAGED is like the pentatonics filled in with notes--and I figure, well, if I can relate a pentatonic scale to a key (ie, Am pent is right under your hand on an Am chord), I can just fill in the other notes. So CAGED is probably a good approach to be a bit more systematic about it. Also know arpeggios. When you're improvising, the obvious thing to do on any given chord is to play the notes of that chord (yet so many bad players neglect to do so!).

[fabian s]

JedL,

 

I just had another look at your CAGED to Pos.pdf.

 

Looking at the first row of chord grids you have:

 

* C major pentatonic with C major chord in bold,

 

* C major scale (C Ionian mode) with C major chord (I chord in the key of C) in bold

 

* F major scale (C Mixolydian mode) with C major chord (V chord in the key of F) in bold

 

* G major scale (C Lydian mode) with C major chord (IV chord in the key of G) in bold

 

Subsequent rows are the same theory around the remaining 4 CAGED positions (A, G, E and D).

[fabian s]

So what your diagram shows is:

 

Row 1

 

C (played using an open C shape) functioning as a I chord (C Ionian), as a V chord (C Mixolydian / F major) and as a IV chord (C Lydian / G major).

---------------------------------------------

 

Row 2

 

C (played using an A barre shape) functioning as a I chord (C Ionian), as a V chord (C Mixolydian / F major) and as a IV chord (C Lydian / G major).

---------------------------------------------

 

Row 3

 

C (played using an G barre shape) functioning as a I chord (C Ionian), as a V chord (C Mixolydian / F major) and as a IV chord (C Lydian / G major).

---------------------------------------------

 

Row 4

 

C (played using an E barre shape) functioning as a I chord (C Ionian), as a V chord (C Mixolydian / F major) and as a IV chord (C Lydian / G major).

---------------------------------------------

 

Row 5

 

C (played using an D barre shape) functioning as a I chord (C Ionian), as a V chord (C Mixolydian / F major) and as a IV chord (C Lydian / G major).

---------------------------------------------

 

Interesting to note that the pentatonic leaves out the semitones that differentiate Ionian from Lydian and Mixolydian. So the pentatonic will fit whether C is functioning as I, IV, or V.

[Jed]

 

JedL, I just had another look at your CAGED to Pos.pdf. Looking at the first row of chord grids you have: * C major pentatonic with C major chord in bold, * C major scale (C Ionian mode) with C major chord (I chord in the key of C) in bold * F major scale (C Mixolydian mode) with C major chord (V chord in the key of F) in bold * G major scale (C Lydian mode) with C major chord (IV chord in the key of G) in bold Subsequent rows are the same theory around the remaining 4 CAGED positions (A, G, E and D).

 

 

Fabian,

 

Exactly. The idea was to show how the CAGED system for chords and pentatonic scales "fits" perfectly and unchanged inside the Positional scale forms. The CAGED forms are listed vertically in the first column and three various positional forms (that include the CAGED pentatonic forms) are listed to the right of each CAGED pentatonic form. The actual Positional scale form utilized varies dependent on the harmonic function of the triad in question, just like in real life.

 

Hopefully this might help some people see the how the two systems are compatible at least relative to the CAGED chord / pentatonic forms and the Positional 7-note scale forms. I have an aversion to the CAGED 7-note fingerings due to the large number of positional shifts. Understandable, I hope, given my initial training in the Positional scale forms system.

 

As you pointed out, the 3nps fingerings obscure this connection between the CAGED and Positional fingerings systems. I was originally confused when CBL spoke about Positional forms and 3nps forms as the same thing even though they are related (3nps being derived from Positional forms). From my perspective the Positional scale forms are a more logical step from pentatonics to 7-note scales than are the 7-note fingerings as presented in Fretboard Logic. I say this for two reasons: 1) The standard pentatonic fingerings carry over unchanged into the Positional 7-note scale form fingerings (with a single exception). While the Fretboard Logic approach requires numerous fingerings changes to accommodate the transition from pentatonic to 7-note fingerings. 2) The Positional forms present a bridge to the 3nps system, featuring identical fingerings in the lower 3 or 4 strings. While the Fretboard Logic 7-note forms utilize significantly different fingerings on as many as 5 or 6 of the strings.

 

Of course these differences matter little to the advanced guitarist, but I think to developing guitarists the devil is in these details. I'm convinced our early choices (of fingering systems) greatly influence our perceptions and our ability to transition from patterns-based to note-based thinking.

 

cheers,

 

Jed

[Jed]

 

So what your diagram shows is: Interesting to note that the pentatonic leaves out the semitones that differentiate Ionian from Lydian and Mixolydian. So the pentatonic will fit whether C is functioning as I, IV, or V.

 

 

Exactly. Which of course is how and why the pentatonic scale works the way it does. Later this same point leads us towards pentatonic and triad substitutions.

 

Further the same thing happens on the minor side of life where the minor pentatonic is created by removing the semi-tones (characteristic notes) from the various minor scales (Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian) to the same effect. It's this kind of thinking that clearly illustrates (IMHO) how all of these things are interrelated that I find to be very advantageous for developing guitarists / musicians.

 

I took the path less traveled and learned the Positional forms before I learned the Pentatonic forms. But the similarities work both ways. Either type of player can move between the two approaches via the Positional-Pentatonic form similarities. I believe neither 3nps nor the Fretboard Logic 7-note fingerings provide this level of similarity and hence this level of function relevance.

 

cheers,

 

Jed

[6mmSid]

I nominate this for a sticky. I'll have to read it 20 more times to FULLY understand it, but I learned more about the fretboard this week than in the last 2 years. Thanks everyone!

[fabian s]

 

It's this kind of thinking that clearly illustrates (IMHO) how all of these things are interrelated that I find to be very advantageous for developing guitarists / musicians.

 

 

Agreed.

[fiveway switch]

tagging for later thanks for this great post guys

[toneking]

I think to add something else to this great thread is the do re mi system of half-step patterns-bubbamc had some great posts on this subject of which I'm learning with a teacher that has a method of using visualization with the 2 patterns of half steps all over the fretboard. I think it teaches the new way with the old way without too much theory to bog you down. The 3nps includes itself automatically and taking away the 4 and the7th gives you pentatonics. CAGED is a helluva good way to learn your arpeggio patterns also but now I can do them with extended runs with the half-step paterns which fills in the fretboard with useful ways of using it while developing your ear. The keyboard has its sharps and flats with the black keys and on the guitar if you use the do re mi system you don't have to think about sharps and flats you find your way around without thinking about anything but your patterns. Sometime down the road I will post th whole theory when I know the system completely. There are some weird things with this system with there only being 3 keys in western music- all of them are related and if you seen my instructor you would {censored} at how fluently he changes keys. He was the head teacher in guitar magic 3 dvd.