Help me out with modulation!

[Giorgi]

Hey guys,

 

I'm not from around here but I do require help from those who are proficient at this type of thing. Namely modulation using pivot chords.

 

I've been learning about modulation and I understand it in theory: I think I'm able to find pivot chords and such. The problem is, it doesn't seem to work when I try to apply it.

 

I want you to help me solve an example.

 

Basically I have a song in the key of Eb major. I'd like to take it 2 steps higher (from Eb major to F major) for the last part of the chorus (I think it's called shift modulation). The problem is direct modulation isn't working here. Therefore I had to find pivot chords etc. Here's what I came up with:

 

Eb major scale : Eb, F, G, G#, A#, C, D

F major scale : F, G, A, A#, C, D, E

 

Since pivot chords are most usually the ii or the iv of the key you want to switch to here a G minor fits the bill perfectly: there a G minor chord in both scales and it's a ii chord in F major. Then we need to play the dominant chord of the new scale (V chord), here it is the C major. AND then finally we can play in the new key.

 

However when I play these chords it doesn't sound right at all! I've included the two parts of the song I want to link with modulation in the attachment (my attempt at modulation hasn't been included).

 

Please help me out here.

 

Thanks!

[jonfinn]

Hi Giorgi!

 

One of my theory teachers from years ago gave me a rather tongue-in-cheek suggestion: "Don't settle for a direct and elegant solution when a complex, convoluted one will do."

 

Instead of trying to make a pivot chord work, why not just do a direct modulation without any "setup" chords?

 

Also, Eb major scale is: Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb

F major scale: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F

 

You had the pitches right, but when describing them, its good to keep your language consistent (i.e. dont mix sharps and flats when describing a major scale). This way shows that the key of Eb has three flats (Bb, Eb, Ab) where F has only one. Clearer?

 

Hey guys, Basically I have a song in the key of Eb major. I'd like to take it 2 steps higher (from Eb major to F major) for the last part of the chorus (I think it's called shift modulation). The problem is direct modulation isn't working here. Therefore I had to find pivot chords etc. Here's what I came up with: Eb major scale : Eb, F, G, G#, A#, C, D F major scale : F, G, A, A#, C, D, E Since pivot chords are most usually the ii or the iv of the key you want to switch to here a G minor fits the bill perfectly: there a G minor chord in both scales and it's a ii chord in F major. Then we need to play the dominant chord of the new scale (V chord), here it is the C major. AND then finally we can play in the new key. However when I play these chords it doesn't sound right at all! I've included the two parts of the song I want to link with modulation in the attachment (my attempt at modulation hasn't been included). Please help me out here. Thanks!

 

[JonR]

Since pivot chords are most usually the ii or the iv of the key you want to switch to here a G minor fits the bill perfectly: there a G minor chord in both scales and it's a ii chord in F major. Then we need to play the dominant chord of the new scale (V chord), here it is the C major. AND then finally we can play in the new key. However when I play these chords it doesn't sound right at all!

OK, the problem here (for me anyhow) is that "it doesn't sound right at all". That suggests (assuming you're playing all your chords right...) that a conventional modulation is not the sound you're after. (I'm guessing it sounds too ordinary, too smooth, or too cliched.)

That means you want something more unusual - and of course we can have no idea what that is.

All I could suggest (feebly) is further few orthodox ways of doing it - including the direct one jon suggests - such as:

 

Have you tried just going via C7 (losing the Gm)? (more direct)

Have you tried just going straight in with F? (most direct!) - maybe with a quick passing E major in between (dramatic)?

 

How about using C7 to go to Fm (C7 as a secondary dominant - V/ii - in key of Eb major), maybe a couple times, then going to F major instead the last time? (Obviously you'd need a few bars of a new section to achieve this.)

 

Gm7b5-C7 might also work. Gm7b5 is like a rootless Eb9, so might sound as if you're about to modulate to IV (Ab), but then the C7 will make us expect Fm; which means an F major is a nice surprise. ("Nice" being a subjective value judgment, of course .)

 

A similar kind of "feint" is to use Db7-C7 - which again leads the ear to expect Fm to follow, not F major. Of course Db7 (like Gm7b5) is chromatic to both Eb major AND F major, so you get a kind of double surprise: one sudden "outside" chord, suggesting one kind of modulation, but then subverted by leading somewhere different. And yet it's logical (the ear recognises that).

 

Then again, just using Edim7 as a single intermediate chord will work. It's a kind of sub for C7, but ambiguous enough not to signal F major directly - but does resolve very well to F.

 

 

EDIT! Just listened (belatedly) to your clip, and I think I see where the problem might lie. The sequence actually has no Eb major chord, so the key is a little ambiguous.

Ab - Bb - Gm - Cm - is more like Cm is key chord.

You want to modulate to the same sequence a whole step: IOW to an opening chord of Bb (not F).

That's why Gm-C7 is going to sound wrong.

You could therefore use a ii-V of Bb (Cm7-F7) - you might like it, although I don't much. (It's OK, but a little awkward to work into the previous sequence.)

 

My suggestion is to use A7 in place of Cm as the last chord before the change:

 

Ab - Bb - Gm - A7

 

(and maybe hang on to the A7 an extra bar)

 

Gm-A7 is a iv-V in key of D minor, which is (arguably) the key of your new sequence. It doesn't matter that you begin on Bb. That's a "deceptive cadence" after the A7, but works because you eventually arrive at the Dm chord (after Bb-C-Am).

 

NB: I like the sound of that. I don't guarantee you will...

[c+t in b]

Since you're going through two degrees of kinship in this modulation, it will sound much better if you modulate to a third key between F and Eb. It will sound more pleasant to use g minor, since it is the relative minor of Bb, which is one degree of kinship between each

[Giorgi]

Hello again !

I've tried some of the aforementioned ideas (thanks JonR - your post will be a guide for my future modulation attempts!), however I wasn't very satisfied with the whole V7 chord transition. Also, sorry for misleading you, the scales appear to be Cm and Dm and no Eb major and F major as I thought in the beginning.

I was frustrated with this song so I decided to just wing it by ear. The end result is basically a direct modulation (suggested jonfinn). You can hear the final result (chorus + bridge + modulated chorus) in the attached file, tell me if it sounds good or if the transition is weird.

[JonR]

Sounds fine to me. It helps that you have that bridge, with the different rhythm.