Can anyone compare Axon vs VG-99 Tracking ?

[xtrouble]

I'm thinking of getting a VG-99, mainly for the tuning changes, and to play around (as you do ) with a new toy. I currently use an axon ax50 for midi and I think the tracking is excellent, however if I get a Vg-99 I thought I might save a bit of cash by selling the axon. But I have read horror stories about the Roland tracking, is it significantly worse than the axon tracking ?

[TieDyedDevil]

Totally different beasts. The VG isn't doing pitch extraction, the Axon is. The VG will do something reasonable with anything you throw at it. The Axon will demand not only very clean technique, but also a bit of anticipation (esp. on the lower notes) to counteract any latency.

[germanicus2112]

The VG perform do midi conversion, as the axon does. Both midi conversions require clean technique for satisfactory results. The axon uses a different method for determining pitch, and is generally perceived to be 'superior' in this area (faster tracking).

 

The vg99 however does many other things, including something called HRM synthesis which allows synth like tones from your guitar without the need for the device to track its pitch. The result is amazingly fast response, faster than any pitch to midi conversion. Think pat metheny's synth tone or allan holdsworth synthaxe tone as an example (gr300 emulation).

 

The vg99's pitch to midi is comparable to rolands GI-20 unit. Its certainly useable, but axons is superior.

 

Nonetheless the 99 is an amazing device that does things no other device can do (incredible alternate tuning capacity, dual modelled guitars/effects/amps, hrm, etc.).

[xtrouble]

Thanks, I think I'll have to get one. I hate that GASsy feeling, I know it won't go away until I've spent more money !

[MIDIme]

Axon better at tracking as it is a guitar to MIDI converter unit. I have an Axon 100 MKII with internal soundboard. Had it several years before the VG-99. The Axon's sounds are weak compared to a top of the line synth/sound module, but still many great sounds and much more variety than the VG-99. I have been very happy with it for several years now.

 

If all you want is guitar modeling, than the VG is the way to go. It's guitar sounds are excellent, most are way better than the Axon's internal ones.

 

If you want to instantly sound like a keyboard/synthesiser player the Axon would be better, and cheaper. Lots of different types of instruments like strings, horns, bass, organs, keyboards, synths, all the usual keyboard stuff.

 

All my own personal opinions, of course. Consider them at your own risk.

 

MIDIme

[germanicus2112]

Just as a point of clarification, the vg99 doesnt have an internal sound module built in as products such as the axon mkII, gr33, or gr20 have.

 

The vg99 DOES have midi out which can drive external/software synth/sampler modules.

It also has hex based modelling, which can dramatically change the sound of whats put into the unit (makes your guitar sound like an acoustic, sitar, nylon, various electrics, gr300 type synth tones, etc.)

 

Many users have expounded on the 99's hrm synthesis functionality and made approximations of keyboard/synth sounds (organs, strings, classic synth sounds). The units capability is nice in this area with alot of parameters you can tweak. This feature also doesnt suffer from tracking issues at all, as its not pitch to midi.

 

I end up using both the hrm stuff as well as the 99's pitch to midi feature (driving external synth/samplers).

[aliensporebomb]

OK:

Here's the guitar-to-midi portion of my VG-99.

The only internal VG99 sound I am using is the distorted lead guitar sound.

There's real guitar, and then along with it the VG-99 midi'ed to:

MIDIMan Midisport 2x2 to Mac G5 2.5 dual with 7 gigs of ram with

the following softsynths:

-korg legacycell faux lead guitar patch,

-apple garageband midi crotales

-apple garageband midi synth bass

 

http://pod.ath.cx/vg99/guitar-to-midi-quick.mp3

 

The fast parts at the end are just flatpicked.

 

Fast enough? Do I need to do this faster?

 

Now, want to hear a track I did with VG-99 with just internal sounds:

http://pod.ath.cx/vg99/Rigsby%20Reloaded-24-final.mp3

 

There's stereo distorted guitars, stereo HRM modulated/synth guitars, bass guitar, standard clean doubled with

a piezo clean guitar and a drum loop. The lead is a standard lead guitar doubled with a clean HRM processed guitar.

 

Notice when I do the legato leads in the end of the solo that the harder I hit the notes the more the HRM bits

come up and then they go down in level the lighter I enunciate the notes.

 

Here's the VG-99 distorted rhythm guitar but also triggering a midi synth bass:

http://pod.ath.cx/vg99/Giganticus_Rex.mp3

Then there's a really noodly HRM lead guitar part over the "power trio".

The guitar, bass, drums were all live with the HRM lead later.

 

There's tons of stuff this box can do just beyond a mere "guitar synth" or "guitar-to-midi converter" or "modeller"

or "computer recording interface". It's so multifaceted and deep It might take a while to get thru it all.

 

If you really want to hear what the box can do in terms of otherworldly sounds run to youtube and search

for baranger1 and check his tunes he's done with the vg-99. He makes his own patches and is a pro session

guitarist living in chicago. He can make the thing sound like the nicest synths ever, on par with spectrasonics

omnisphere softsynth but just his guitar and vg-99.

[aliensporebomb]

Oh, one more thing: the sensitivity of the vg-99 for tracking is set to 56 on units fresh from the factory and it's WAY too high. Set it into the mid twenties or low thirties for excellent midi tracking. But, the unit is so good with the HRM stuff and its internal synths (not effected by tracking speed) you might never do guitar-to-midi with it.

 

I'm just doing it because it's fun to control a whole band with one guitar.

[MIDIme]

Thank you for the excellent post and samples. Please, tell me. What does HRM stand for?

[aliensporebomb]

HRM = Harmonic Restructure Modeling.

 

I can give you an mp3 example of what HRM processing to a standard guitar sounds like. It can sound VERY unusual...

[Ultralight22]

I have a newish Axon with a Godin Freeway SA. It tracks pretty well with certain softsynth patches but poorly with others. I understand that it's possible to improve tracking with a proper set up but I don't know how to do that. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

I'm posting here because you guys seem to know what you are doing.

 

Many thanks.

[MIDIme]

 

HRM = Harmonic Restructure Modeling. I can give you an mp3 example of what HRM processing to a standard guitar sounds like. It can sound VERY unusual...

 

 

Sure, like to understand what you are referring to.

 

Thanks,

[MIDIme]

" I understand that it's possible to improve tracking with a proper set up but I don't know how to do that. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

I'm posting here because you guys seem to know what you are doing. "

 

Dear Ultralight22,

 

My non-professional, school of hard knocks, glitches, squacks, and gleeps suggestions accumulated by internet research and trial and error:

 

Start with your instrument. Adjust the action such that you have absolutely no fret buzz. Normal electric guitar set up might allow for a fair amount amount of fret buzz as the trade off for super low "fast" action. Same with acoustic guitars. Really listen carefully to each open string and fret them along the neck. "Normal" fret buzz isn't ideal here. Be in a quiet room and be fussy. Your Axon is fussy too. Fussy is good. Means it is sensitive and capable of dynamic, expressive output. Find a reasonable compromise between no buzz and playability. Adjust for intonation using whichever method you prefer.

 

Be very mindful of your pick attack. Beware of unconscious palm muting and other techniques/personal styles of picking and strumming you may have adopted. A clean, precise, moderate attack may bring you much better results. Remember to maintain the cleaner, more sterile pick attack throughout the piece. My problem is that I frequently revert to my percussive Neil Young Acoustic Guitar style which is not appropriate for this application. Nor is heavy metal palm muting, pick sliding or raking.

 

READ THE AXON MANUAL. Follow instructions for setting string sensitivity, trigger levels, and so on. Generally, I find setting the levels very low causes fewer ghost notes and glitch sounds. I'm talking from zero to mid-teens--low twenties---depending on which instrument and hexaphonic P/U system involved. The unit will be a bit more responsive when settings are higher and will output more volume. But, it will pick up more unwanted string and body noise and things we normally filter out with our own ears, or consider cool sounding pick/strum accents, get converted into crap. Good, or amazing tracking is the little zone of perfect responsiveness achieved by good technique and proper equipment settings.

 

Now, practice using the super clean, sterile pick attack and low sensitivity settings for a long time. Try different picks and strings. I have found picks that I prefer for acoustic guitar playing are not as good for Axon/VG-99. Over time you may be able to increase string sentitivity or trigger levels as your attack becomes consistant. Higher settings allows for a more natural, dynamic response from the triggered sounds but requires real familiarity with the equipment to get the most expressiveness without unwanted noises. You will be able to slowly reintroduce expressive pick attacks as you become one with the system chain.

 

Good luck and keep at it. It's worth the early stages of frustration. This is almost like learning to play all over again...

[girevik]

 

Sure, like to understand what you are referring to. Thanks,

 

 

aliensporebomb's demos are great. Here's Bill Ruppert's thread on the topic:

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2397440