Members brownbathrobe Posted October 31, 2009 Members Share Posted October 31, 2009 Hey folks, I am looking to buy a hardware guitar effects unit which will allow me to sync my effects rates (delay time, tremolo speed, LFOs etc) to my drum machine. Last week I borrowed a TC Electronic Nova System and did some tests of this nature. The Nova syncs up, but only sort of. It's in the ballpark but far enough off that it's very noticeable. I have no way of measuring but it must be at least a couple of BPM off... Is this because the Nova System only "checks" the clock when the drum machine starts (or changes tempo) and not on a continual basis? Is this a problem which I am likely to come across on all effects units or is it specific to the Nova System? Am I asking too much to have my effects times locked rock solid to the master MIDI clock? Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted October 31, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 31, 2009 After messing around with this some more I have realized that, although the Nova recognizes the MIDI clock it does not sync very well at all. I've compared the BPM readings on my Nova System to the tempo of my drum machines and the Nova System is consistently faster than the MIDI clock by several (up to 8) beats per minute! I'd love it if someone else could check this for me so I can know whether or not this is unique to my Nova System. All you need to do is: - Connect the MIDI OUT of your drum machine (or any other device capable of sending a MIDI clock) to the MIDI IN port on your Nova System. - Start your drum machine/device and set the tempo to whatever you like. - Press the "Tap Tempo" button once on your Nova System to bring up the BPM display. - Compare the BPM display on the Nova System to the tempo on your drum machine. - Tell me I'm not crazy? Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarvinDog Posted November 2, 2009 Members Share Posted November 2, 2009 Instead of setting the tempos the same, the Nova should be able to be set to external sync. For example, on one of my synths, to set the arpeggiator to external sync, I turn the tempo all the way down until it says, "MIDI," and then it'll sync to whatever is coming into the MIDI in port. I don't have a Nova, but I've got other TC equipment, and they've all got an external sync setting somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members elantric Posted November 3, 2009 Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 Other processors that sync their delays and LFOs, Tremolo, etc to MIDI Clock are: Roland VG-88 Roland VG-99 Boss GT-3, GT-5, GT-6, GT-8, GT-10 Adrenalinn I, II, III Digitech GSP-2101 Line 6 Vetta II Line 6 M13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 Thanks for the replies, guys. MarvinDog - I do have the Nova set up to sync to MIDI. It's just not doing a very good job of syncing for some reason. elantric - Thanks for that list. I might start checking out some other options... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarvinDog Posted November 3, 2009 Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 Is your drum machine capable of sending MTC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cincy_cosmo Posted November 3, 2009 Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 I've done this very thing with a Boss GT-8 hooked into a DR-880 and it does an awesome job. Of course, depending on what you want in efx, you may want to just replace your drum machine with a DR-880, which has a full guitar effects section and bpm settings on timed effects like delay so the sync is all internal. The DR-880 effects are good sounding, but it lacks some of the functionallity of GTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 Is your drum machine capable of sending MTC? Is that MIDI Time Code? I'll confess that I don't actually even know what MTC is! I don't think either of my drum machines (Roland R8, Yamaha RY30) can send it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarvinDog Posted November 3, 2009 Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 Yep, it's MIDI Time Code. That's what will keep everything in sync, and it's usually what the TC is expecting-- at least that's what my TC equipment is expecting. Even if your drum machines can't send MTC, there may still be a combo of settings between the the drum machines and the Nova that'll keep them in sync. If not, you may need another box to generate MTC. I use a MOTU MTP AV that keeps all of my gear sync'd, but it's probably overkill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 Hmm, that's very interesting. Is MTC a continuous thing? Like I said above, the Nova System is obviously recognizing and responding to whatever the drum machine is sending, just not very accurately. What kind of MIDI information is my drum machine sending if not a MTC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarvinDog Posted November 3, 2009 Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 Yep, MTC is continuous. IIRC, it's a subset of SMPTE Time Code, which is used for film and tv, and is accurate to 1/30 of a second. It sounds like your drum machine is sending MIDI Transport, which is Start, Stop and a couple other commands, but doesn't contain sync. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 I see. This is very helpful information. So if I reallywant stuff to sync properly and reliably then I need to use MTC I guess? Does this mean that I should get some kind of master device that sends MTC and then slave everything (including the drum machine) to that? Do all devices recognize incoming MTC even if they don't send it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarvinDog Posted November 3, 2009 Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 All of mine do (synths, drum machine, effects boxes, DAW, computer-based sequencer). Getting a master box/interface may seem like a pain and possibly a waste of cash/extravagance, but it'll make adding devices in the future easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrbass Posted November 3, 2009 Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 FYI - There is a known issue with sync'ing Midi clock on teh TC Nova and G major. Last I heard, tech support at TC is working on a firmware update to resolve the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 FYI - There is a known issue with sync'ing Midi clock on teh TC Nova and G major. Last I heard, tech support at TC is working on a firmware update to resolve the issue. No, I did not know that actually. Is this documented? I've been posting on the user-to-user forum and no one has even so much as mentioned this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 4, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 4, 2009 Is this documented? Thank you SO much for bringing this to my attention, gtrbass. I found a thread about this on the G Major user forum. Seems that this has been a "known issue" for almost 8 months now. http://forum.tcelectronic.com/viewtopic.php?id=3439 I'll be returning my Nova System tomorrow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarvinDog Posted November 4, 2009 Members Share Posted November 4, 2009 Wow-- I was actually thinking of buying a G Major. I think I'll skip it for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 4, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 4, 2009 Wow-- I was actually thinking of buying a G Major. I think I'll skip it for now. Yeah, it is so totally annoying, as is the fact that TC has known about it for at least 8 months and haven't fixed it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 4, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 4, 2009 By the way, MarvinDog... I hooked up my both of my drum machines to a MIDI monitor last night to see what they're outputting. They send both "clock" and "active sense" messages many, many, many times a second. That's not MTC is it? They sync perfectly to one another in any case, which leads me to believe that an effects unit which works properly should be able to sync up as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarvinDog Posted November 4, 2009 Members Share Posted November 4, 2009 By the way, MarvinDog...I hooked up my both of my drum machines to a MIDI monitor last night to see what they're outputting. They send both "clock" and "active sense" messages many, many, many times a second. That's not MTC is it? They sync perfectly to one another in any case, which leads me to believe that an effects unit which works properly should be able to sync up as well... That sure sounds like MTC. I'm really disappointed in TC. All of the stuff I own from them has been top notch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 4, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 4, 2009 I'm really disappointed in TC. Likewise. I'd heard so much good stuff about their gear. The Nova System was my first TC Electronic purchase and it will probably be my last, at least until I've exhausted some other possibilities. Or until they get their act together in the tech support department! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 5, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2009 Wow, I was just about to purchase an Eventide Timefactor pedal (I literally had my credit card number entered and everything) but started reading their user forum and found out that they also have unresolved MIDI syncing issues!!! I'm beginning to think I'm asking too much to have my effect rates sync'd to MIDI. Is anyone doing this successfully and if so WTF kind of gear are you using??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members elantric Posted November 5, 2009 Members Share Posted November 5, 2009 http://www.tweakheadz.com/sync_mmc_mtc_smpte.htm Types of Sync: MMC stands for MIDI Machine Control. Its designed for controlling the transport on tape and multitrack machines. If the multi-track was the MMC master, you press "play" on the multitrack, the sequencer will start. Or in the example below, if you make the sequencer the MMC master, pressing play will start the multi-track. MMC really just controls the transport and sends a locate point--not the timing; its just a switch that says "Go here, then start, stop, rewind, fast forward". What you do to complete the picture is send MTC from the MMC slave. SMPTE (Society of Motion Pictures and Television Engineers) is still in use in Film and Video today and is embedded right into digital video so no tape tracks are required. In the days of tape recorders, we used SMPTE and striped it on the last track of the tape recorder. On playback, a standard audio cable took the output to a MIDI interface and controlled the sequencer from it. MTC stands for MIDI Time Code. Its a series midi messages that tells other devices what time it is at any given moment in hours, minutes, seconds and frames. MTC is simply understood as a conversion of SMPTE timecode that goes down a MIDI cable. It is sent in quarter frame intervals as MIDI system exclusive data. MIDI Clock is yet another option, not to be confused with MTC, though they are similar. Originally, MIDI clock sync was just a bunch of blips that told devices when to start, stop, continue and follow the tempo of the master device. This is perfect for making synths and samplers synchronize their LFOs, and effects delay time. It also passes tempo which is important when syncing arpeggiators, drum loops and other time based sounds. SPP refers to Song Position Pointer, which can be transmitted along with the MIDI clock signals. SPP is based on Bars, Beats, subdivisions of beats down to ticks (or clocks) which is the finest resolution of the MIDI device. SPP is sent every 6 clocks or ticks as System Exclusive Data. For some devices that is all you need and you don't have to use MTC, which is based on hours, minutes, seconds, frames and quarter frames. Which to use? The one that works. Not all of them will. But generally, syncing sequencers and multi-track recorders you use MTC. Controlling synths you use MIDI clocks. Controlling other sequencers you use whichever works. Many drum machines, for example, won't accept SMPTE. Many multi track recorders will not accept MIDI clocks. Some devices won't accept MMC at all. Others will allow themselves to be an MMC master but not a slave. Usually, there is one combination that will work, but don't bank on it. Some devices do not work at all. Always check that out before you by gear that needs to synchronize. FWIW - All the Guitar Processor Gear i listed earlier in this Thread Sync on MIDI CLOCK - and Not MIDI TIME CODE. They are different animals. More reading here:http://www.midisolutions.com/EP_Guide.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brownbathrobe Posted November 5, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2009 Hey elantric, It's funny, I actually just finished reading that very article. Great minds! I am getting the impression that, while a lot of companies claim that their products sync to MIDI Clock, there is actually a significant huge margin of error. Both TC Electronic and Eventide (two highly regarded and reputable companies) have widely reported yet unresolved MIDI sync issues. I'm just not clear if it's because of bad programming or if it's something which is inherent in MIDI syncing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members elantric Posted November 5, 2009 Members Share Posted November 5, 2009 Just be sure when inquiring with either Eventide or T.C Electronics "When will we be able to reliably sync the LFO / delays to MIDI?" - that you specify which type of sync you desire: For example saying: "When will we be able to reliably sync the LFO to MIDI CLOCK?" Is very different than saying: "When will we be able to reliably sync the LFO to MIDI TIME Code?" While MTC would be ideal for most modern gear - very few guitar type processors provide true MTC sync. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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