Great article on modern interfaith relations and religion in international relations

[STEEL KAGE]

Originally posted by rememberduane Eh.. Kage... this guy obviously hasn't changed his opinion over the years. He's been saying the same thing for a long time from my understanding. That kind of negates the "what people want to hear" idea, and the fact that he could piss off Muslims negates it as well. Important is relative, but in Islam, the Imam is EXTREMELY important. Moreso than high ranking members of the Catholic Church to Catholics. You can't really say an Imam is to Islam what someone like Pat Robertson is to Christianity, because the culture and the religion call for a much higher respect and deference to religious leaders. Plus, a wise person in a seat of importance would choose their words wisely (unlike the Pope, who definitely meant well, but is a bit less of a people person than John Paul II, and a bit more of an academic), I think he meant what he said. Regardless, even if it IS a form letter -- considering he is *influential* in the Muslim community, isn't the statement a positive one? I'd think so. I'm really not trying to be adversarial, but I just can't see the negative aspect of something like this.

 

 

Im not debating the messages importance Chris, Im questioning its Veracity and sincerity. I dont care what the guys credentials are either I feel that I have sufficient cause to question what comes out his mouth. Of course it just my opinion but it certainly not one with out merit...

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by STEEL KAGE Im not debating the messages importance Chris, Im questioning its Veracity and sincerity. I dont care what the guys credentials are either I feel that I have sufficient cause to question what comes out his mouth. Of course it just my opinion but it certainly not one with out merit...

 

 

Kage, I have to disagree with you there. He's been saying the same thing for years. Not to mention, what cause do you have to question what comes out of his mouth? I see nothing that would give you merit to that opinion. Please do explain.

[Urban Ghandi]

Originally posted by DeathMonkey You just aren't ever going to accept anything other than hatred from Muslims, or give anything back to Muslims but hatred, are you?

 

 

 

I would not presume to speak for KAGE or anyone else but I think it is you who has a slight misunderstanding DeathMonkey.

 

I've read all the threads and contributed to some.

 

I think where you miss the mark is: I really don't think that people at HCAF are lumping ALL Muslims into the "Kill the Infidel" crowd. I think that most everyone here understands that it is a minority of Muslims creating a majority of the problem.

 

It is only slightly confused even more by the fact that the majority of Muslims are not being more vocal about their condemnation of Radical Islam.

 

Don't get me wrong...the hatred is there but it is for the radical element of Islam and not all Muslims.

 

Here at HCAF, I think people find it easier to just label it Muslims but they mean the radical ones.

 

But, I could be wrong.

[Stratotone]

Originally posted by rememberduane We're having a civil discussion, no room for trolls. Go post about Krank amps. Reported by the way.

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by Stratotone Very funny picture.

Very intelligent. As if I have a double standard, being of no faith and specifically posting what I found to be a great article about peace and unity between faiths.

Grow up.

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by Urban Ghandi I would not presume to speak for KAGE or anyone else but I think it is you who has a slight misunderstanding DeathMonkey. I've read all the threads and contributed to some. I think where you miss the mark is: I really don't think that people at HCAF are lumping ALL Muslims into the "Kill the Infidel" crowd. I think that most everyone here understands that it is a minority of Muslims creating a majority of the problem. It is only slightly confused even more by the fact that the majority of Muslims are not being more vocal about their condemnation of Radical Islam. Don't get me wrong...the hatred is there but it is for the radical element of Islam and not all Muslims. Here at HCAF, I think people find it easier to just label it Muslims but they mean the radical ones. But, I could be wrong.

 

 

Honestly, I wish that were the case, because then I would have no qualm with it whatsoever.

[STEEL KAGE]

Originally posted by rememberduane Oh and Kage: Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf Founder and CEO of the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA Society) and Imam of Masjid Al-Farah, a mosque in New York City, twelve blocks from Ground Zero. He has dedicated his life to building bridges between Muslims and the West and is a leader in the effort to build religious pluralism and integrate Islam into modern society. By establishing ASMA in 1997, he created the first Muslim organization committed to bringing Muslims and non-Muslims together through programs in academia, policy, current affairs and culture. As Imam of Masjid Al-Farah, he preaches a message of peace and understanding between people, regardless of creed, nationality or political beliefs. His inspiring sermons have made him one of the most sought-after Muslim clerics in the US. Imam Feisal is also the architect of the Cordoba Initiative, an inter-religious blueprint for improving relations between the Muslim world and West & America. As a tireless advocate for an ecumenical solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he has impressed his vision on US lawmakers and administration officials, most recently as member of the National Inter-religious Initiative For Peace in Washington DC. Regarded as one of the world most eloquent and erudite Muslim leaders, Imam Feisal speaks frequently at major US think tanks and international conferences, including Council for Foreign relations, YPO, World Economic Forum in Davos. In addition, his ability to motivate religious novices and experts alike has made him a popular teacher of Islam at many respected New York institutions, including the Center for Religious Inquiry at St. Bartholomew's Church and the Chautauqua Institution. Imam Feisal is a member of the World Economic Forum Council of 100 Leaders (Islamic West dialogue) and the Board of Trustees of the Islamic Center of New York. He is also an advisor to the Interfaith Center of New York. His published writings include the books Islam: A Search for Meaning, and Islam: A Sacred Law (what every Muslim should know about the Shariah) His latest book, What's Right With Islam: A New Vision for Muslims and the West was rated by Christian Science Monitor amongst its top four books on religion. A charismatic public speaker, Imam Feisal has appeared in national and international media such as CNN, BBC, CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS and BBC. He has been quoted in the New York Times, Time magazine, Washington Post, New York Daily News, Jerusalem Post, and Associated Press. Imam Feisal was born in Kuwait in 1948 into an Egyptian family steeped in religious scholarship. He was educated in England and Malaysia and has a degree in physics from Columbia University in New York, USA.

 

 

This is all well and good Chris though Im not sure what it proves. There are plenty of people out there with similar backgrounds and accolades, It doesnt meant that I wont question or be cynical. Ive seen plenty of it in Christianity, my own faith...

 

Theres also plenty of well educated badguys as well; The Unabomber was a Harvard Grad;) It appears that Imam went to my alma mater...

 

As a survivor of 9/11, theres a point I find interesting; I dont recall seeing one person of Middle eastern/ Muslim Background helping with recovery efforts. Now before you state the obvious, I understand that their presence might not have been a good thing but I dont recall seeing them offer.Just an observation....

[Stratotone]

Originally posted by rememberduane Very intelligent. As if I have a double standard, being of no faith and specifically posting what I found to be a great article about peace and unity between faiths. Grow up.

Why don't you go to a pakistan madrassa (there are thousands to choose from) and share with them your great discoveries about peace and unity? We have absorbed enough of your information, you should spread it elsewhere, so as to get the most effect. Kinda like manure.

Pete

[STEEL KAGE]

Originally posted by rememberduane Kage, I have to disagree with you there. He's been saying the same thing for years. Not to mention, what cause do you have to question what comes out of his mouth? I see nothing that would give you merit to that opinion. Please do explain.

:freak: Public Relations Chris!!! WTF?!?!? Do you seriously think that a message of hate and condemnation is going to win favor? I even saw Arafat denouncing the 9/11 attacks LOL!!! did you believe him? Im not saying that this guy is the same kind of guy that Arafat was but is it on his best interests to preach anything but peace? Call him whatever you want but in the end, hes still a politician....

You cant see this? what the hell am I missing?

[Knut E Evenmo]

Originally posted by STEEL KAGE Theres also plenty of well educated badguys as well; The Unabomber was a Harvard Grad;) It appears that Imam went to alma mater...

 

 

 

They are the most dangerous ones over time. Patience and intelligence aren`t to be overlooked. The guys that flew the planes 911 actually took the time to learn how to fly planes with one thing on mind... Scary stuff.

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by STEEL KAGE This is all well and good Chris though Im not sure what it proves. There are plenty of people out there with similar backgrounds and accolades, It doesnt meant that I wont question or be cynical. Ive seen plenty of it in Christianity, my own faith... Theres also plenty of well educated badguys as well; The Unabomber was a Harvard Grad;) It appears that Imam went to alma mater... As a survivor of 9/11, theres a point I find interesting; I dont recall seeing one person of Middle eastern/ Muslim Background helping with recovery efforts. Now before you state the obvious, I understand that their presence might not have been a good thing but I dont recall seeing them offer.Just an observation....

 

 

Kage... This should be obvious, but it might have had something to do with the random Arabs (and non-Arabs -- Sikhs, Turks, North Africans, and others.. even Indians and Puerto Ricans.. included) being beaten by scumbags on the street lashing out.

 

When 9/11 happened and for several years before and after, my next door neighbors were Muslim. I still speak with them on occasion, and I tutored their daughter, who is a great girl. When 9/11 occured, we invited them over for dinner. Believe me, the tears shed by a grown man were real. The death threats they received on their lawn were real. I've never met a more patriotic family than those people, and yet you say things like "I didn't see any Muslims trying to help". Please, Kage, of all people, have a little compassion and understanding. Even in Florida, they were afraid to leave the house.

 

I really just don't see how this guy could be perceived as a badguy, or his message as propaganda, or as being untrue. He has preached the same message over and over again. He doesn't change according to the times or yield to pressure from either side. The more I read about him, the more I really respect his message and what he has achieved.

[gdwill2u]

Originally posted by rememberduane http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3586 Worth a read at least. Some smart things from a major Imam. From the article: "FP: Ramadan is just around the corner. What are your wishes for the world during this holy month? FAR: That we remember that the two greatest commandments that God gave us through the mouths of his many prophets and messengers, including Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed: To love the lord our God and to love our neighbors. It also means do not do unto others what you do not want others to do unto you. If that can be the criterion of our foreign policy, I guarantee you that our foreign policy will be successful and wildly popular. Feisal Abdul Rauf is imam of the New York City mosque Masjid Al-Farah, the founder and chairman of the Cordoba Initiative, a multifaith organization dedicated to building bridges between Islam and the West, and the founder of the ASMA Society (American Sufi Muslim Association). He is author of What

[Nutter]

Originally posted by Urban Ghandi I think where you miss the mark is: I really don't think that people at HCAF are lumping ALL Muslims into the "Kill the Infidel" crowd. I think that most everyone here understands that it is a minority of Muslims creating a majority of the problem.

 

 

But then you get this...

 

 

I lived with muslims for 2 years...they pure evil violent barbarian thugs...all of them

 

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by STEEL KAGE :freak: Public Relations Chris!!! WTF?!?!? Do you seriously think that a message of hate and condemnation is going to win favor? I even saw Arafat denouncing the 9/11 attacks LOL!!! did you believe him? Im not saying that this guy is the same kind of guy that Arafat was but is it on his best interests to preach anything but peace? Call him whatever you want but in the end, hes still a politician.... You cant see this? what the hell am I missing?

Kage.. the "public relations" thing only works if they have other motives in mind or if they have a history of contradictory actions.

Please explain how THIS Imam in particular has either. What about his history makes you unsure? The only points you have are that he is Muslim and that he is a "politician". I'm sorry, but when someone sticks to a specific message for so long, I don't question their motives.

[gdwill2u]

Originally posted by rememberduane We're having a civil discussion, no room for trolls. Go post about Krank amps. Reported by the way.

Reported?

To who?

I hope you aren't talking about the mods:rolleyes:

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by gdwill2u That is a nice sentiment, and I am certain that most Muslims feel the same way. The only problem is that the small few that are radical fundamentalists are EXTREMELY dangerous. I cannot take any Muslim too seriously about foreign policy, unti I hear their proposal for dealing with fundamentalist terrorism. A few good intentions and some noble aspirations just won't do IMO. But it is nice to be reminded that Muslims are human and are just like us in many ways. What does this guy suggest we do about the terrorist?

 

 

I agree about the radical fundamentalists.

 

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/170/story_17044_1.html

 

Imam Feisal Rauf

 

July 7, 2005

No Violence in Islam's Name

'We now make a prayer for a future that is replete with peace and love for all.'

The Holy Quran teaches us that "Whoever kills a human being, for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it is as if He has killed all mankind: and if he saves a human life, it is as if he has saved the lives of all mankind" Quran 5:32.

 

There can be few things as antithetical to religion, particularly my religion of Islam, as the wanton violence wreaked by the recent attacks in London. It is at times like these that the responsibility falls again on us, those of a truly humane spiritual nature, to speak out against the violence, and to console those who have suffered from it.

 

It is also at times like these that we again have to appropriate the misuse of religion from the hands of fanatical men whose sole purpose is to rouse the masses and beget further violence. It must be stated for the record that all religions have the same relative value with respect to the high goals we reach as people and the same lack of value of when they fail to call forth the love of God. This alone is the uniform standard of value in the assessment of religion.

 

As before, today our voices are raised together to proclaim support for our English sisters and brothers who have experienced loss and to recognize the unity of God and to bring human kind together. We now make a prayer for a future that is replete with peace and love for all of our sisters and brothers across the world, and for a future that is far far different from the tumultuous, hateful times that we live in now.

 

May God Almighty bless the departed souls and shelter them in his compassion and admit them into his acceptance and paradise and let the blessings of their lives continue to be showered upon their families, friends and loved ones.

[Knut E Evenmo]

Originally posted by gdwill2u The only problem is that the small few that are radical fundamentalists are EXTREMELY dangerous.

 

 

 

Agreed, and that goes for all kind of fundamentalists... The proverbial rotten apple that makes you reach for another bag.

 

I worked with a lot of young Pakistanis, and most of them were decent young people who, like me, wanted to make an honest buck, and loved their family. But I know there are many with other agendas. I just don`t think they`re the majority. A shouting match escalates very quickly, everybody`s seen that once in their lives.... International politics are just the same, and when you add the spice of religion, it only gets worse.

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by Knut E Evenmo Agreed, and that goes for all kind of fundamentalists... The proverbial rotten apple that makes you reach for another bag. I worked with a lot of young Pakistanis, and most of them were decent young people who, like me, wanted to make an honest buck, and loved their family. But I know there are many with other agendas. I just don`t think they`re the majority. A shouting match escalates very quickly, everybody`s seen that once in their lives.... International politics are just the same, and when you add the spice of religion, it only gets worse.

[Knut E Evenmo]

Originally posted by rememberduane The Holy Quran teaches us that "Whoever kills a human being, for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it is as if He has killed all mankind: and if he saves a human life, it is as if he has saved the lives of all mankind" Quran 5:32.

 

 

 

 

I`ve never had the balls to ask a muslim about the sword verse, because I`m so damn political correct. I wish someone would when I was nearby, though:) It would be interesting to hear the individual`s interpretation of it.

[STEEL KAGE]

Originally posted by rememberduane Kage... This should be obvious, but it might have had something to do with the random Arabs (and non-Arabs -- Sikhs, Turks, North Africans, and others.. even Indians and Puerto Ricans.. included) being beaten by scumbags on the street lashing out. When 9/11 happened and for several years before and after, my next door neighbors were Muslim. I still speak with them on occasion, and I tutored their daughter, who is a great girl. When 9/11 occured, we invited them over for dinner. Believe me, the tears shed by a grown man were real. The death threats they received on their lawn were real. I've never met a more patriotic family than those people, and yet you say things like "I didn't see any Muslims trying to help". Please, Kage, of all people, have a little compassion and understanding. Even in Florida, they were afraid to leave the house. I really just don't see how this guy could be perceived as a badguy, or his message as propaganda, or as being untrue. He has preached the same message over and over again. He doesn't change according to the times or yield to pressure from either side. The more I read about him, the more I really respect his message and what he has achieved.

 

 

Like I said, I understood the reasons and saw the fear. My muslim buddy who own the bodega right around the corner from me was flipping out and I told him that I had his back(I also told him that If I ever found out that he supported terrorist groups, Id burn his store to the ground with his family in it myself)

 

I have a different perspective Chris, decidedly different yet I STILL DONT STEREOTYPE. I act on what I see and Experience and the things that I learn through research. To me , the Imam is just another religious leader/politician. Perhaps that will Change but for now , Im a cynic... BTW, I havent called him a bad guy....yet. Youre more than welcome to consider him a Ghandi, Mother Theresa , whatever... The Jury isnt out as far as Im concerned .

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by Knut E Evenmo I`ve never had the balls to ask a muslim about the sword verse, because I`m so damn political correct. I wish someone would when I was nearby, though:) It would be interesting to hear the individual`s interpretation of it.

Agreed :D .

Then again I assume it would be similar to a Christian's interpretation of burning his family member because they spoke to him about another religion.

Mom comes home from Yoga class and tells Pop about it. Little Freddie goes "Daaaaad, we have to get the stake out.. where's the lighter fluid? Not aaanooooother one. Ugh."

[STEEL KAGE]

Originally posted by rememberduane Kage.. the "public relations" thing only works if they have other motives in mind or if they have a history of contradictory actions. Please explain how THIS Imam in particular has either. What about his history makes you unsure? The only points you have are that he is Muslim and that he is a "politician". I'm sorry, but when someone sticks to a specific message for so long, I don't question their motives.

There really isnt anything else that I could say If you dont get it Chris..

 

Again, I havent called him a bad guy Chris, I havent condemned him either. Public relations is public relations, contradictory history has nothing to do with it....

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by STEEL KAGE Like I said, I understood the reasons and saw the fear. My muslim buddy who own the bodega right around the corner from me was flipping out and I told him that I had his back(I also told him that If I ever found out that he supported terrorist groups, Id burn his store to the ground with his family in it myself) I have a different perspective Chris, decidedly different yet I STILL DONT STEREOTYPE. I act on what I see and Experience and the things that I learn through research. To me , the Imam is just another religious leader/politician. Perhaps that will Change but for now , Im a cynic... BTW, I havent called him a bad guy....yet. Youre more than welcome to consider him a Ghandi, Mother Theresa , whatever... The Jury isnt out as far as Im concerned .

 

 

Hey, cynicism is healthy as far as I'm concerned, but I'm also not one to jump to conclusions or assume their motives. I like a healthy balance. I am cynical at first, but then I'll research a bit, which I've done, and see if they have a good track record. This guy is clean as a whistle, and has been preaching great stuff his entire career. Honestly, he does seem to be a great figure like that. Obviously I'm wary of anyone in a seat of power, but truthfully Kage, this guy just seems to be trying to promote the peaceful aspects of his religion in order to stop the violence, and hopefully bridge the gap between the West and the Arab world.

 

Maybe I'm being naive, but I've found nothing to disprove that this is his aim.

[angry again2]

Is there any reason why you want to post your political veiws in an amp forum? You do know there is the sss political forum where you can get all the attention you crave with your posts.

[rememberduane]

Originally posted by angry again2 Is there any reason why you want to post your political veiws in an amp forum? You do know there is the sss political forum where you can get all the attention you crave with your posts.

You haven't been around these parts long have you? The amp forum is a community. We talk about everything here. From our women problems to porn to music to sports to politics to more women to life advice to anything else we can think of.