Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Does anyone on the forum know if there is a appreciable difference in older, vintage G12M 25 watt Greenbacks vs: the new reissues? I think the specs are similar, but the low end frequency handling of the originals is 50 or 55Hz vs: the new issues which are 75Hz. I don't know if that difference is worth paying a ton of extra ca$h for. The price of vintage G12Ms is staggering compared to new ones, but I'd like to know if the new ones stack up to the originals or are even close! I have never had cabs with G12M Greenbacks, only G12H-30s, which I eventually removed and sold. All of the clips I hear of the G12M speakers, either straight or mixed, sound pretty damn impressive. I'm pretty much a Marshall guy, but am branching out to other amp types such as the Egnator TOL 100 and Mark III amp. I currently run V-30s and G12-65s in all my cabs.... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mamberg Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 I've never heard a vintage greenback in person, but FWIW, I am very happy with the reissue that I have. There are both made in china and Made in England versions, personally, I would stay from the Chinese ones. The Made in England will have this stamp on the back (at the top of the back panel): while the made in china ones look identical, except for the embossed stamp. There is also a 55HZ reissue, I think it is a G12L?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by mamberg I've never heard a vintage greenback in person, but FWIW, I am very happy with the reissue that I have. There are both made in china and Made in England versions, personally, I would stay from the Chinese ones. The Made in England will have this stamp on the back (at the top of the back panel): while the made in china ones look identical, except for the embossed stamp. There is also a 55HZ reissue, I think it is a G12L?? Damn! There's a lot to consider with the G12s! I would want the Ipswitch, UK - built ones if I got the RI spkrs for sure...... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by mamberg I've never heard a vintage greenback in person, but FWIW, I am very happy with the reissue that I have. There are both made in china and Made in England versions, personally, I would stay from the Chinese ones. The Made in England will have this stamp on the back (at the top of the back panel): while the made in china ones look identical, except for the embossed stamp. There is also a 55HZ reissue, I think it is a G12L?? Hey, mamberg, thanks for the lead! Here's what I came up with re: the G12L-35: http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar+Amp/product/Celestion/G12L-35/10/1 That sounds like a rare speaker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members psychodave Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Big difference. Not that the new ones are bad, but the older ones have a little certain "something" that the new ones dont have. The new heritage speakers are extremely close to the originals though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mamberg Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 That's not the one I was talking about. It was a G12H, not a G12L (H stands for heavy, as in a heavier magnet) Click here , and once you get to the page, click on the specifications. This is one of the Heritage models that psychoDave was talking 'bout. You can see all of the Greenback reissues on Celestions site (link) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by psychodave Big difference. Not that the new ones are bad, but the older ones have a little certain "something" that the new ones dont have. The new heritage speakers are extremely close to the originals though. I thought you'd chime in here! Cool! Are you running any of these in your friggin' "Great Wall of China" double stacks? I saved that pic.... simply insane! I'd just hate to spend enough ca$h needed to fill a 4 x 12 box for the originals...... I'll trade you my modded Silvertone 100 watt head for your G12M-loaded 4 x 12?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members telephant Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 I talked to a guy with Celestion and he told me there was no differencde between chinese and uk model speakers. He said they packed up the equipment from the UK and shipped it to China. only difference is chinese working the machinery instead of wankers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by mamberg That's not the one I was talking about. It was a G12H, not a G12L (H stands for heavy, as in a heavier magnet) Click here , and once you get to the page, click on the specifications. This is one of the Heritage models that psychoDave was talking 'bout. You can see all of the Greenback reissues on Celestions site (link) OK, thanks! I appreciate your help.... Your post said "G12L" and that's what I did a quick search on. That speaker don't sound like what I'd want at all. Hmmmmmm... I went to the link and isn't that a G12H-30? Shit, I had those mixed with the V-30 combos and grew tired of the sound... Maybe I fucked up (whoodathunk?) and shoulda off-loaded the V-30s??? Holy shit... too many Celestions.... not enough cabs to try them in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by telephant I talked to a guy with Celestion and he told me there was no differencde between chinese and uk model speakers. He said they packed up the equipment from the UK and shipped it to China. only difference is chinese working the machinery instead of wankers. You have great point there, telephant! Just observe how the Made In Japan "Lawsuit" guitar copies were made by the Japanese and then Koreans. And I have a MIM (Hecho en Mexico cabron!) Strat that is my favorite guitar! Well, that is, once I put $300.00 worth of pickups and tuners on it!! Same specs and manufacturing equipment for the Sino-built spkrs should generate similar product, that is, as long as quality control remains a factor stressed by Celestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by tubebury/KT88 I thought you'd chime in here! Cool! Are you running any of these in your friggin' "Great Wall of China" double stacks? I saved that pic.... simply insane! Look at all those cabs! Can't you spare just one for me? I'll even take the one your cats pissed on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Evil Dr. X Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by tubebury/KT88 Does anyone on the forum know if there is a appreciable difference in older, vintage G12M 25 watt Greenbacks vs: the new reissues? I think the specs are similar, but the low end frequency handling of the originals is 50 or 55Hz vs: the new issues which are 75Hz. I don't know if that difference is worth paying a ton of extra ca$h for. The price of vintage G12Ms is staggering compared to new ones, but I'd like to know if the new ones stack up to the originals or are even close! I have never had cabs with G12M Greenbacks, only G12H-30s, which I eventually removed and sold. All of the clips I hear of the G12M speakers, either straight or mixed, sound pretty damn impressive. I'm pretty much a Marshall guy, but am branching out to other amp types such as the Egnator TOL 100 and Mark III amp. I currently run V-30s and G12-65s in all my cabs.... Thanks! Bummer, I've been looking all over for some original G12H30s. My Bro is a big greenback and vintage amp nut.... he swears the old broken in originals sound noticably better than the new stuff. Personally, I don't care for the Greenbacks so I haven't spent much time comparing. Unless you have Golden ears, I wouldn't spend the money for originals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by The Evil Dr. X Bummer, I've been looking all over for some original G12H30s. My Bro is a big greenback and vintage amp nut.... he swears the old broken in originals sound noticably better than the new stuff. Personally, I don't care for the Greenbacks so I haven't spent much time comparing. Unless you have Golden ears, I wouldn't spend the money for originals. Hi Evil, thanks for chiming in. I have heard that as well, the broken-in (but not blown) vintage speakers sound better. Why don't you like the Greenbacks? It's funny that I thought I didn't like the G12H-30s I had, so I could be all fucked up in what I'm hearing! They are "supposed" to sound similar to the G12Ms.... I don't think I have "Golden Ears", but do have a good ear for tones and a good touch on the guitar, but there are friends of mine that smear me across the pavement, so I never get too confidant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Evil Dr. X Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by tubebury/KT88 Hi Evil, thanks for chiming in. I have heard that as well, the broken-in (but not blown) vintage speakers sound better. Why don't you like the Greenbacks? It's funny that I thought I didn't like the G12H-30s I had, so I could be all fucked up in what I'm hearing! They are "supposed" to sound similar to the G12Ms.... I don't think I have "Golden Ears", but do have a good ear for tones and a good touch on the guitar, but there are friends of mine that smear me across the pavement, so I never get too confidant. My Bro has 2 68 straight Marshall cabs, one with 25W Greenbacks and the other with the G12H30s. We did a comparison using the same amp and guitar. To me the Greenbacks sounded too woody and a bit loose or blurry in the bottom end. The G12Hs sounded perfect to me !!! ... vintage Marshall all the way..... like coming home ! (The amp was a 69 100W Superlead BTW ) ..... like they say, tone is subjective..... I know my Brother likes those greenbacks more than I did........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by The Evil Dr. X My Bro has 2 68 straight Marshall cabs, one with 25W Greenbacks and the other with the G12H30s. We did a comparison using the same amp and guitar. To me the Greenbacks sounded too woody and a bit loose or blurry in the bottom end. The G12Hs sounded perfect to me !!! ... vintage Marshall all the way..... like coming home ! (The amp was a 69 100W Superlead BTW ) ..... like they say, tone is subjective..... I know my Brother likes those greenbacks more than I did........ That's cool Evil Dr. X that you got to hear some awesome gear and A/B them two cabs! Was the low end just a mess or not "Nu-Metal/bRuTaL" enough for the "modern" stuff? I'm getting more into the lower to medium gain tones these days.... No more VHT 50/CL in Hi Gain mode with the Gain dimed any longer.... !!! And I don't like to step on the bass player's low end territory too much! So I don't really need a scary amount of super tight low ends.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 cheap shot bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Evil Dr. X Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by tubebury/KT88 That's cool Evil Dr. X that you got to hear some awesome gear and A/B them two cabs! Was the low end just a mess or not "Nu-Metal/bRuTaL" enough for the "modern" stuff? I'm getting more into the lower to medium gain tones these days.... No more VHT 50/CL in Hi Gain mode with the Gain dimed any longer.... !!! And I don't like to step on the bass player's low end territory too much! So I don't really need a scary amount of super tight low ends.. Hi Could you repeat teh question again ? The Greenbacks sound fine but there was just something I liked about the G12H30 much better ...... they had nice defined bass and a good balance from low to high frequencies. The Greenies would probably sound great with higher gain amps because many high gainers usually don't have the huge fatness in the bottom end like the old vintage type amps..... at least modern amps I've had ...... Soldanos and such ......but I had some Greenbacks and booted them out the door..... but you may like them? ...... just a personal preference. I was wrong on the cabs .... one was a 70 ..... for whatever it was worth. Those old Marshall cabs sound great no matter what speaker you run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by The Evil Dr. X Hi Could you repeat teh question again ? The Greenbacks sound fine but there was just something I liked about the G12H30 much better ...... they had nice defined bass and a good balance from low to high frequencies. The Greenies would probably sound great with higher gain amps because many high gainers usually don't have the huge fatness in the bottom end like the old vintage type amps..... at least modern amps I've had ...... Soldanos and such ......but I had some Greenbacks and booted them out the door..... but you may like them? ...... just a personal preference. I was wrong on the cabs .... one was a 70 ..... for whatever it was worth. Those old Marshall cabs sound great no matter what speaker you run That's a twist, I have found the opposite to be true in regards to excess or overabundant low end with modern amp vs: vintage amps. The Mesa, VHT, Soldano, Marshall, Randall, etc. "modern" amps had way more low end than all of my pre 1985 amps ever did. That's not to say a cranked Super Lead won't have a big bottom, it just won't have that HUGE almost overstated low end of say, somthin akin to, a Recto or VHT if dialed in that way.... Just my 2 cents..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Strato-Rich Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 The chinese reissues are a little dark, the G12M heritage are a little brighter and more articulate. I've played some pre-rolla's and they sounded like the heritage models, but well broken in. -hope this helps. For the money spent on the Heritage models, I'd go for the scumbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Really? You would go for the Scumbacks, eh.... Have you heard these? The Weber British ceramic Silver Bell 12s? They sound pretty sweet, sorta light breakup and I wish he had some cranked/higher crunch sound clips... I tried to attach the sound clip, but I can't! https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Greazygeo Posted December 30, 2006 Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 I have a few different 4-12's loaded with GB's. My two Wizard cabs have the English RI from the early 90's and I also have two 68 Marshall slants with T1511 GB's with the 014 cones. They sound nothing alike really. The RI (75hz) are thick, crunchy and a bit loose. Both my 68 cabs sound alot different from each other even with the same speakers. One is really full and clear with tight lows. The other is alot brighter. With older Celestions its rare to find any that sound alike and I've come across alot of them that sounded bad. I won't buy old ones unless I can hear them first. If you have the $$ I'd go with the Heritage probably. The reg RI don't sound bad after they are broken in a bit either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 30, 2006 Originally posted by Greazygeo I have a few different 4-12's loaded with GB's. My two Wizard cabs have the English RI from the early 90's and I also have two 68 Marshall slants with T1511 GB's with the 014 cones. They sound nothing alike really. The RI (75hz) are thick, crunchy and a bit loose. Both my 68 cabs sound alot different from each other even with the same speakers. One is really full and clear with tight lows. The other is alot brighter. With older Celestions its rare to find any that sound alike and I've come across alot of them that sounded bad. I won't buy old ones unless I can hear them first. If you have the $$ I'd go with the Heritage probably. The reg RI don't sound bad after they are broken in a bit either... Thanks, that's good info... Do you think your '68 cabs sound different because of the cabs or the spkrs? You mentioned they are loaded with the same spkrs (T1511/014 cones)... Maybe the spkr's wear and "broken-in" factor is part of the tonal variance? Are they orig. 25watt GBs in 55Hz or 75Hz? I have read where that's part of the equation as well. As I said before, there are so many variables with these Celestions. I want a more mid-dominant 'Marshally' pushed clean-to-crunch sound, not anything too bright (although the amp rig has EQ to compensate), too fuzzy or too woofy (is that a word?)... I have this older style tone in my head somewhere between Ritchie Blackmore's more gainy stuff/Robin Trower crunch and Clapton's Sitting on Top of the World live sound.... Great crunch, but not hosed with gain, able to clean-up OK with the volume control and able to take a few dirt pedals to up the ante a little... I have Cameron modded Marshalls, so the amplifiers are what I want in that regard..... I think my Mark III will like four matched Greenbacks as well, as long as I don't dime-out the gain!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Greazygeo Posted December 31, 2006 Members Share Posted December 31, 2006 Originally posted by tubebury/KT88 Thanks, that's good info... Do you think your '68 cabs sound different because of the cabs or the spkrs? You mentioned they are loaded with the same spkrs (T1511/014 cones)... Maybe the spkr's wear and "broken-in" factor is part of the tonal variance? Are they orig. 25watt GBs in 55Hz or 75Hz? I have read where that's part of the equation as well. As I said before, there are so many variables with these Celestions. I want a more mid-dominant 'Marshally' pushed clean-to-crunch sound, not anything too bright (although the amp rig has EQ to compensate), too fuzzy or too woofy (is that a word?)... I have this older style tone in my head somewhere between Ritchie Blackmore's more gainy stuff/Robin Trower crunch and Clapton's Sitting on Top of the World live sound.... Great crunch, but not hosed with gain, able to clean-up OK with the volume control and able to take a few dirt pedals to up the ante a little... I have Cameron modded Marshalls, so the amplifiers are what I want in that regard..... I think my Mark III will like four matched Greenbacks as well, as long as I don't dime-out the gain!! You know it's hard to say, but the better sounding of the 68's is totally beat to death looking. They are both the original GB's T1511 and both have the same 014 cones. I did have to have two reconed by Weber. He did the Scumback treatment to them. They sound like they used to before they died, so thats good!! I've AB-d my cab with a '69 cab with origianl H30's. Those sounded pretty scooped and I didn't care for those. I had a 73 cab with Rola H30's and it was so bright it would tear your head off! I hung out with Ritchie's tech at a couple gtr shows. He had some of Ritchie's cabs for sale. He used CL80's and the cabs were packed full of insulation. Alot of it depends on how hard and loud you are going to push the speakers. GB's do pretty good, till they are pushed too hard. I think you'd be fine with the RI's or Heritage. I'd probably prefer the Heritage G12M's myself. My T1511's (they are marked 20 watt too), are clearer and tighter than my RI 25/75hz are. I just got word some video footage of my band is done. I used my Wizard MC and GB loaded cab for the show, I'll see if I can link to it somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 31, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 31, 2006 Originally posted by Greazygeo You know it's hard to say, but the better sounding of the 68's is totally beat to death looking. They are both the original GB's T1511 and both have the same 014 cones. I did have to have two reconed by Weber. He did the Scumback treatment to them. They sound like they used to before they died, so thats good!! I've AB-d my cab with a '69 cab with origianl H30's. Those sounded pretty scooped and I didn't care for those. I had a 73 cab with Rola H30's and it was so bright it would tear your head off! I hung out with Ritchie's tech at a couple gtr shows. He had some of Ritchie's cabs for sale. He used CL80's and the cabs were packed full of insulation. Alot of it depends on how hard and loud you are going to push the speakers. GB's do pretty good, till they are pushed too hard. I think you'd be fine with the RI's or Heritage. I'd probably prefer the Heritage G12M's myself. My T1511's (they are marked 20 watt too), are clearer and tighter than my RI 25/75hz are. I just got word some video footage of my band is done. I used my Wizard MC and GB loaded cab for the show, I'll see if I can link to it somehow. Celestion 80s??? Whoa! Who'da thunk that's what he was /is using in his cabs!! And insulation in the cabs as well.... Would that suck up low end inside the cab and make the tone tighter? LOL! Listen to me, what a tone-fag! I'll bet that was cool to meet his tech. I won't be blasting the 4 x 12 cab at a very high volume at all, just medium-loud club gig level plus a Senn E609 to mic one of the spkrs.... 50 watt or 100 watt heads with master volumes so, no dimed plexis for me! Now the Heritage are the 30 watters, correct? And I have read where that's a conservative 30 watt rating. Are those different than the '73 cab you mentioned that was so bright? Those were Rolas and the other cab was pre-Rola? And the Heritage is supposed to be a recreation of the original "H" speakers? I don't recall the G12H-30s I had as being too bright, but I had them mixed with V-30s so I probably should have run them straight/not mixed in the 4 x 12 to really judge them.... Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tubebury/KT88 Posted December 31, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 31, 2006 Originally posted by Greazygeo You know it's hard to say, but the better sounding of the 68's is totally beat to death looking. They are both the original GB's T1511 and both have the same 014 cones. I did have to have two reconed by Weber. He did the Scumback treatment to them. They sound like they used to before they died, so thats good!! I've AB-d my cab with a '69 cab with origianl H30's. Those sounded pretty scooped and I didn't care for those. I had a 73 cab with Rola H30's and it was so bright it would tear your head off! I hung out with Ritchie's tech at a couple gtr shows. He had some of Ritchie's cabs for sale. He used CL80's and the cabs were packed full of insulation. Alot of it depends on how hard and loud you are going to push the speakers. GB's do pretty good, till they are pushed too hard. I think you'd be fine with the RI's or Heritage. I'd probably prefer the Heritage G12M's myself. My T1511's (they are marked 20 watt too), are clearer and tighter than my RI 25/75hz are. I just got word some video footage of my band is done. I used my Wizard MC and GB loaded cab for the show, I'll see if I can link to it somehow. oops! Misread your post re: the Heritage Celestions! You wrote Heritage G12Ms and I didn't read it correctly, so I see what you meant, now! Doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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