Do we overthink as songwriters?

[SomeGuyNamedRob]

With all the songwriting theory and lessons on lyrics that are being posted, do you think that we may be overthinking the process of writing songs?

[Mike Fresh]

whatever works, man... i just let it flow, but the lessons can be of some help too. you cant overthink the process. a few of the lessons have actually helped me out a little...

[Kingnome]

I either write, or I can't write. When I write. it's good.

 

I tend to believe that many songwriters, as much as any other artists, are very neurotic, obsessive/compulsive, and self-absorbed, but not in a conceited way.

 

It would be only natural for this type to over-analyze their lyrics.

 

I tend to over-analyze my music and melodies in a very obsessive way, but not my lyrics.

[TheSandwich]

When I write songs, most of my chords and riffs come about quite quickly, in almost an improvised sense. I only write lyrics when I am really feeling something, so I am able to make them come about quite quickly also.

[JackSonic]

No. If anything, most of us are underthinking. I re-write my lyrics a couple of times before the song really starts taking shape. As far as the musical arrangement, the more I play it the better it gets (up to a certain point)

[TheSandwich]

 

Originally posted by Jacksonic No. If anything, most of us are underthinking. I re-write my lyrics a couple of times before the song really starts taking shape. As far as the musical arrangement, the more I play it the better it gets (up to a certain point)

 

 

If that works for you, great. For me, overthinking leads to quick burnout and a bad song.

[BlueStrat]

For me, there's no set formula. Sometimes it's like building a model, where you have to find the right parts and glue them together carefully. Or like carving something from a block of wood. Other times, if you'll forgive the crude simile, it's like taking a dump- you just sit down, and whoop, there it is! (and often the results are the same!)

[cool_E]

How many of us are just too dam* lazy to work at improving

our skills or too dam* arrogant to think we need improving.

 

Most here are guitar players. Did you just pick up the guitar

one day and start playing and writing great music? Or, perhaps,

did you have to learn basics (scales, chords, chord progressions)

and practice for hours, days, months and years to become a

reasonably good player? Did it ever occur to you that you might

have to do the same with writing lyrics? Or did you figure that

because you could string together one or two intelligible

sentences you're already a master of the English language?

 

 

hmmmm....

[SomeGuyNamedRob]

 

Originally posted by cool_E How many of us are just too dam* lazy to work at improving our skills or too dam* arrogant to think we need improving. Most here are guitar players. Did you just pick up the guitar one day and start playing and writing great music? Or, perhaps, did you have to learn basics (scales, chords, chord progressions) and practice for hours, days, months and years to become a reasonably good player? Did it ever occur to you that you might have to do the same with writing lyrics? Or did you figure that because you could string together one or two intelligible sentences you're already a master of the English language? hmmmm....

 

 

Interesting - if abrasively stated - point. However, I'm inclined to wonder how many songs that are considered timeless were written well before the advent of guides and manuals on songwriting.

[BryanMichael]

THere has always been a craft to "modern" songwriting

starting sometime in the late 19th century.

Books and manuals about the craft are helpful.

Can you write a great song WITHOUT this stuff?

sure-

But even traditional FOLK type of songs that evolved naturally had the elements of songwriting that are now illustrated in the books and manuals. What was once an inherent part of our musical conciousness has been largely destroyed in America, and as we've embraced abstraction in every art form-people have been trained to believe that "anything goes" as long as you are expressing yourself.

Well, sure-go ahead and express yourself! But that doesn't make the study of the craft of songwriting any less valid.

The study of songwriting, you may notice, implies an independence of genre or style. A "well-written" song could work in various genres or styles.

Genre specific songs are sometimes harder to critique, but an appreciation for language, progression, and storytelling are "relatively" universal. What does it hurt to study this stuff?

[cool_E]

Sorry for the abrasiveness of my post.

 

My main point is that to be good at anything

one must put in effort, work hard, learn and

re-learn. We can all relate to the work we've

put in learning to play instruments or improving

our recording skills. Let's also recognize that

improving as a songwriter requires at least as

much effort. Does it have to be lessons and

books? Maybe not. For those who have learned

to play their chosen instrument with the aid of

lessons I ask, has it helped? Could you have

learned as much, as quickly, left on your own?

 

Here's a couple of questions the "songwriters" among

us should ponder...

 

How many hours a day do you practice playing the guitar?

 

How many hours a day do you practice writing?

[SomeGuyNamedRob]

 

Originally posted by BryanMichael THere has always been a craft to "modern" songwriting starting sometime in the late 19th century. Books and manuals about the craft are helpful. Can you write a great song WITHOUT this stuff? sure- But even traditional FOLK type of songs that evolved naturally had the elements of songwriting that are now illustrated in the books and manuals.

 

 

What I meant was how much of these manuals has come from the reverse engineering of already great songs? Something of a chicken/egg question.

 

I think that study of it could help for some, but that a reliance on songwriting theory can cause some awfully stale and predictable results.

[BryanMichael]

As usual, I'm not totally disagreeing with you Rob-

But the same argument has been made about every artistic/creative endeavor;

 

"I don't want to take guitar lessons because then I will sound like everyone else"

 

"I don't want to take "art" lessons because my art is unique and it will stiffle my creativity"

 

The truth is that if you become rigidly focused on any formula, then yes-your results may not be as "good" as someone elses-

But you can most certainly benefit from learning the mechanics of what it is you are doing.

 

Again, I will point you toward a critique I posted (if I may use my inflated ego here ) for Jared 7 on his lyric. I did NOT change his original images, ideas, story line etc. (well, I made a couple of suggestions) but I DID edit his tense problems and other language issues that were mechanical, not artisitic, choices he could (should?) have made. The lyric was still all Jared, but just clarified. At the end of the day, it's his song-but I think simple verb tense consistency and use of pronoun without proper antecedent are writing issues that can benefit from "critique".

 

peace,

Bryan

[cool_E]

 

Originally posted by BryanMichael "I don't want to take "art" lessons because my art is unique and it will stiffle my creativity"

 

 

I've been involved in the visual arts and have done some

reading & research on many great artists. As a rule (i.e.

most but not all) they all learned traditional painting and

drawing techniques. Look at the very early work of most

great artists and you'll see this. After learning their craft

they searched for, and found, their own unique voices.

 

They, for the most part, defied conventional ideas about

art. They broke new ground. But they did it AFTER becoming

masters of their CRAFT.

 

Understanding better how to achieve reactions, responses

and effects will not stifle one's creativity but rather enhance

it. Think of craft as tools in a tool box. You build better stuff

with more and better tools. You build better stuff if you

learn how to use and practice with your tools.

[BryanMichael]

Dave-

I agree-

I was using those quotes as arguements I have heard for NOT educating yourself.

I hope you weren't disagreeing with me (?)

 

Peace,

Bryan

[cool_E]

Bryan, I understand and we agree

[Kingnome]

 

Originally posted by cool_E Or did you figure that because you could string together one or two intelligible sentences you're already a master of the English language? hmmmm....

 

 

 

Hmmmm yourself.

 

Ex. 1- Ina godda da vida (sp?)

2. Da do do do, da da da da

3. The 'da da da' song

4. That "Eee so cho cho" thing in Roadhouse Blues

These were HUGE hits, and let's not forget:

5. the countless "ooh's and ah's" that add to a great arrangement.

 

I think you might be one of the ones I was referring to with the "neorotic, obsessive/compulsive, over-analyltical" comment. I include myself in that bunch too, but what are you so bitter about ?

[cool_E]

king,

 

I'm not bitter. I find it incredible that the attitude

of so many is that they don't need to work at the craft

or spend time and energy learning in a effort to improve.

To me it's like saying, "I learned G,C & D and there have

been a million hits that use only those chords so I'm

going to play those chords. Why bother learning more?"

 

Pleeeeease

 

I like a lot of cheezy AM hits. "What I Like About You" by

the Romantics comes to mind as a good example.

Despite the fact that I enjoy that song for it's energy

and it's all out cheezy-ness I wouldn't call it a "great,

timeless lyric." BTW where are The Romantics these days?

[electricmel]

I've got to chime in on this one...

 

I think lessons are good for getting someone turned on to simple concepts. Technical ability and reaching inside to pull something out are two totally different things. It would be great to know all the technical details of English or guitar playing or percussion, etc. but it would also be great to forget it all, when needed.

 

My lead guitar player is like that. He can play amazing solos but I have to guide him 80% of the time or else they sound like a Stvie Ray Vaughn thing. Which kills me becuase I am not a (new) blues guy.

 

I'll take Neil Young's solo in Cinnamon Girl over that crap, anyday.

 

And how many notes does Neil Young play? 1

 

Songwriting and writing in general does not improve unless you are constantly writing and reading. Do you need to improve? Maybe not. Just like on the guitar, do you need to practice scales to a metronome all day or just play - with sounds or shapes or other original ideas...?

 

I do think the two opposite sides of this argument are not seeing the point...

 

The "lessons" Cool E is trying to get going are really "writing excersises". They do not judge on talent or content, just offer ideas to express and expand on. What is prohibitive, stifling or de-constructive about them?

 

These "lessons" are merely scenes to improvise off. Like a what they do at Comedy Houses or dueling guitars stuff. Will they make you a better writer? I guess you'll never know unless you try.

 

So I feel contributing to this stuff is like excersising your writing muscle, THE BRAIN.

 

And honestly the only reason I haven't contributed more is the laziness factor. Which is also why I haven't written my first book, which WILL be a freakin' masterpiece.

[electricmel]

I just thought of a good example -

 

I'll take "Louie, Louie" or "She Loves You" over ANY song by Yngwie Mamalsteen.

 

Not dissing on Y, he's great (well, sort of) but his stuff makes me laugh after a while.

[BryanMichael]

Yes, I agree with electricmel-

BUT "She Loves You" DOES follow the songwriting stucture.

 

It has a begining, middle, end-all verses relate back to the title-

and it makes cohesive sense.

Most of the Beatles stuff actually DOES follow songwriting structure.

DeDoDoDo does this as well- Sting laments the limits of language in expression and resorts to simply DeDoDoDo etc. but the song tells a story of sorts, you understand what he means, he uses great language "Poets, priests, and politicians-have words to thank for their positions" Which employs not only great descriptive words but the device of consanance (all the "P" words) which are other devices covered in the book! That doesn't happen by accident, Sting put all those P words in there on purpose.

 

The "lessons' don't necessarilly have to make songwriting more complicated or poetic with big words and obscure references. Some people are more naturally gifted at writing things like that- Sting is well read, so was Lennon-McCartney was well steeped in Vaudeville songwriting styles. All this book does is introduce devices (like consanance) illustrate cliches that have been used a million times, provide you with creative writing exercises, and give you some rhyme strategies, plot development ideas etc...

Things that most good writers employ (naturally or otherwise)

 

Peace,

Bryan

[Kingnome]

I hear what you're saying, I really do. I was only trying to make the point that over-analyzing songwriting techniques can make songs sterile and lifeless. I've listened to dozens of Nashville demos and the attempt to use hook lines all over the place is a good example of what I was trying to say.

 

I agree about the intelligent use of songwriting techniques, and practicing the art, but I still think that musicians are a weird lot, and songwriters are even weirder, (weirder? Now there's a command of the language for ya!) so yes, I think many of us over-think. Many of us wonder--Is it good enough? Will people relate ? Is it too complicated ? Too obscure? Too obvious?

 

These are all good questions and they help us grow, even if we do tend to obsess.

 

Thanks for helping me understand things a little better.

[BryanMichael]

Agreed, King-

Like all creative endeavors, there is also a personal component that can't really be defined.

"You can drink all you want, it won't make you Ernest Hemmingway"

 

Peace,

B

[cool_E]

Bryan, You are the man!

 

Electricmel, you get it.

 

Kingnome, you are right in your opinion that overanalysis

can be bad. Over-anything can be bad, including oversimplification. Following formulas just for the sake

of formulas will definately lead to stale, predictable

songs.

 

I believe we should write from the heart and find our own

voice. I also believe that if one is truly passionate about

writing one will devote time and energy to writing and

will purposefully try to improve. Whether or not that is

done through books is a personal choice. You can learn

all you need to about writing by READING well written poetry,

lyrics and prose.

 

For those of us who are less gifted we need to work all the

harder to become even moderately good writers.

[Kingnome]

Well, thank you Cool E for ...ah.....giving me the same vote of confidence as the other two guys ?!?!

 

Any more of your support and I'd be forced down off the mountain up here in the Slate Belt and show you a song or two.

 

BTW, Who in the valley has the best open mic nite ?