On critiquing lyrics...

[blameshifter]

Well, first of all let me say that it was about time that HC finally added a songwriting forum-I consider myself a songwriter first and everything else a very distant, second, third and so on.

 

One thing that has really struck me is the enormous attention spent critiquing lyrics on this forum. There are obvious reasons of course, it being the easiest way to show people what we've got.

 

The thing though; is that nobody can really do justice to their lyrics in this sort of format. Lyrics are not poetry and they are not meant to be. We are working with hardly, if even half the puzzle. Can good lyrics really get a fair shake on this forum? I don't think so. Now, I definately know bad lyrics when I see them-and there are a lot of bad lyrics being shown here-but I'm not sure I always know good ones. Coupling the lyrics with the music is as much the art of lyric writing as being able to put 3 words in a row that don't shout "I'm a god damn imbecile". So, I'm somewhat hesitant to remark on anyone's lyrics without the knowledge of how it all REALLY fits together. I'm sure a lot of you are aware of this but I'd really like other people's thoughts on the matter.

 

There's an old story about the Beatles going in to record "She Loves You". The engineers looked at the lyric sheets and saw the opening lines:

 

She loves you, yeah yeah yeah

She loves you, yeah yeah yeah

She loves you, yeah yeah yeah

 

They thought, 'Christ, what kind of crap band is going to be recording this tripe'. When the Beatles actually played it though it was absolutely brilliant, fit right in and they knew it. If somebody started a thread with lyrics like that they'd be torn to shreds.

 

So my question is; how productive are these types of requests etc; in this forum?

 

Thoughts?

[Kingnome]

Well, I'll tell ya.....

 

I agree with most of what you're saying. I think a lot of guys want to know if their lyrics have "it", whatever "it" is.

It's hard, to be sure, to tell if the lyrics on their own are anything at all without hearing the melody and music.

 

So many musicians for so many reasons are now working alone. The obvious result is that instead of sitting across from each other with a couple of acoustics or whatever, writing and re-writing, harmonizing and arranging; a lot of us are finding it hard to get the objective feedback that is an important part of the songwriting process.

 

I don't know if it's productive to post lyrics, but apparently alot of guys will take any feedback at all. I don't think there's any harm done. I sure don't miss the BS that comes with Rock-n-roll, but it was a great feeling to create something special with a few people who heard what you heard, and ran with the idea.

[BryanMichael]

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for a critique.

I think that many don't understand what they are asking for and that many don't know what to say!

There is an idea that songwriting is so subjective that no one can possibly critique anyones lyrics anyway-

But I disagree.

I really do believe that language use, word choice, and grammar can be looked at objectively. The choice of images, etc. that a lyricist chooses...well, that's much more subjective.

Without putting myself in a position that I cannot recover from-

I suggest that you take a look at my critique under the post entitled "For Jared 7" regarding his song. I don't think that I changed his original intent, images, etc.

I feel I just made things stronger in the LANGUAGE dept.

I have also posted my own lyrics here (so as not to be an elitist pig ) Under "My song for an independent film soundtrack"

Which showcases one of my "successes" as a lyricist-the song having been included on a film soundtrack.

I also offer the disclaimer to all- "take what you want and ignore the rest"

At the end of the day-it's your song. I'm just trying to help share what talents I may have.

 

Peace,

Bryan

[jazzmaster]

I agree. Most lyrics look really dumb in print. Context accounts for at least half of why a set of lyrics works or don't work.

[Sonic Boy]

well said.

[BlueStrat]

Still, context or not, bad writing is bad writing.

[cool_E]

so, post the lyrics & music, or a link to the song.

 

There are some great lyrics that stand on their own.

Taxi by Harry Chaipan (sp), Both Sides Now bu Joni

Mitchell, Operator by Jim Croche (sp?) and many

more. These are great songs that have stood the

test of time.

 

There are also a lot of one hit wonders, What I like

about you by the Romantics for example, that have

cheesy lyrics that people would really pan in a lyric

only critique. However, in the context of the song

they work great.

 

So I agree with blameshifter to a point. We would

all know a great lyric if it appeared here (OK, some

of us would) but without music many of the lyrics

would get panned even though they might actually

work in a song.

[blameshifter]

Kingnome

Well, you said it right there-it's all about having 'it'. Whatever that may be. When I see people trying to break down what makes a greats song I sort of shudder because I know that there is a magic unquantifiable that makes a great song-that even one with the most rudimentry of chord progressions and basic emotions can have 'it' if the writer is indeed endowed with that gift. Don't get me wrong, I love talking shop but 'it' is what everything all boils down to.

 

And I do recognize the need for feedback-in that way us songwriters are probably more vain and egotistical than shredder types, albeit in a completely different and I hope more measured way.

 

BryanMichael

I think you and I agree with the premise that songwriting is not so subjective that it is above criticism. Otherwise, what is the point of discussing any of it? Songs are not all equally good depending on the observer though obviously there are a thousand million shades of gray in between.

 

And I do agree that some things can be looked at absent of the actual music-that is why I stated that I do know bad lyrics when I see them-just not always the good ones. There have been some exceedingly horrid lyrics posted here and the problems with them are myriad. One the main ones in my opinion is a tendency to be much, much to expository. I don't want lyrics to tell me what the song is about, I want lyrics to pummell me with imaginative imagery that speaks to me in words beyond the literal meanings of the words in the song. Too often lyrics are broken down too easily for the listener/reader and I feel like I'm reading an 8th grader's diary. It's not important for me to know exactley what the writer is feeling, but it is important for me to see through his/her eyes.

 

Again, I don't begrudge you or anyone for posting lyrics-I'm sure I'll crack and put my own up sooner or later:).

 

BlueStrat

Agreed.

 

jazzmaster

Man, a jazzmaster is my guitar and I can't get over how much I love the damn thing. I know they are getting a tad trendy but who really cares? But anyway, yeah you're right-have you noticed a certain subset of wannabe musicians/songwriters who only write lyrics but consider themselves 'songwriters'? Funny stuff.

 

cool_E

 

To my own stuff? Sure, if you can tell me a place to upload a few mp3's I'd love to share my own. Actually, I can figure that out and will probably do so before too long.

[cool_E]

There are plenty of ways to post MP3s for free.

MP3.com (and similar), angelfire (and similar sites).

Songwriting sites like tunesmith.net & others will

allow you to post MP3s for critique and anybody

can view them while they're up.

 

Keep the Faith!

[SomeGuyNamedRob]

I agree that posting lyric sheets is a pointless exercise. Without the context of music, discerning the good from the bad is nearly impossible. Even cliche lyrics can sound right if done to music that makes things clear that the lyric is a parody of a style or genre.

[ulank]

I can see both sides of the argument, but I think good lyrics will shine through in both contexts. Usually, there's not much room in a song to have a lot of words, so to me, good lyrics say a lot with few words. They're intertwined, more than one "plot" and original.